I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!

[DaveyF]

What is sterility...what is neutrality, when it comes to the sound of music?

Whenever I play a live instrument in my room as an example of what a real instrument sounds like, none of the descriptors above apply. The instrument is neither neutral...or sterile. Instead, it is dynamic as all get out, explodes sound into the room, and is extremely precise in how it renders tone. Warmth...or what I perceive warmth to mean, is what it is.
In real life, whenever I have played on a stage or in a studio, the sound that is sought after is one of purity....relating to clarity and purity of tone and timbre.
So, what is a sterile sounding system....or a neutral sounding system? If the system sounds “lifelike” to our ears and fools us into thinking we are listening to live and unamplified instruments and voices in our room....isn’t that the goal?
I suspect that Ron is looking for that...and aren’t we all doing the same therefore?

 

[bonzo75]

What people are discussing is the way to achieve that outcome. Some SS systems that attempt to let the recording flow through end up with it not flowing through and not sounding lifelike but sounding soulless. Then they add a color to give it some warmth. But it's the balance and they go one way or the other over balance. In Mike's the recording flows through and sounds warm and real, but Ron does not believe in that topology to create realism, and rightly so because in most cases that topology results in a different outcome. As per forums, anything valve is colored and anything like spectral is neutral, critics calling that neutral sterile. All too simplistic

 

[853guy]

But then I will never have a koetsu like cart as my primary cart. Maybe for fun. I think the SPU despite its limitations is more real than koetsu, though again it will never be my primary cart. And I will never use sweet sounding tubes like the standard 300b.

The reason I say this is Ron seems to latch on to statements where neutral = sterile, highs = bright, and seems to favor words like sweet, lesser highs, or the verbal description associated with koetsu. While I understand that from a Lyra perspective, having sat together with Ron for some listening sessions I think he will regret if he buys components that go as per the koetsu description and ignores some that might, on the forum, sound a bit like the Lyra description. He might find that Mike has the most sweet sounding sound, created through a neutral system. Because real violin, real flute, real clarinet, is damn sweet sounding, more so than a koetsu color. And based on the speakers he has chosen, the Mike model suits him best.

The Lyra/Koetsu dichotomy remains a curious one to me.

It’s well documented Sugano-San designed his cartridges around the Garrard 401 and SME 3009/1. The preference for Koetsu’s on heavy arms seems to suggest a particular set of parameters in which ultimate performance is predicated upon Sugano-San’s intentions for creating low-compliance carts, therefore necessitating, or at the very least, recommending, high effective-mass arms (and perhaps, idlers).

Conversely, it’s well documented Jonathan Carr’s Lyra designs are exclusively medium-compliance carts, necessitating medium-to-lower effective-mass arms.

So I’m unsure why these two carts are used as proof for some sort of either/or sonic preference, when instead, they seem to suggest very deliberate and non-comparable approaches to cartridge design, and the conditions in which each will likely perform best.

853guy

 

[DaveyF]

What people are discussing is the way to achieve that outcome. Some SS systems that attempt to let the recording flow through end up with it not flowing through and not sounding lifelike but sounding soulless. Then they add a color to give it some warmth. But it's the balance and they go one way or the other over balance. In Mike's the recording flows through and sounds warm and real, but Ron does not believe in that topology to create realism, and rightly so because in most cases that topology results in a different outcome. As per forums, anything valve is colored and anything like spectral is neutral, critics calling that neutral sterile. All too simplistic

I understand that people are discussing ways to achieve the outcome, however, I happen to think, coming from a musicians perspective, that those descriptors are not that useful. ( Neutraility and sterility).
Live music sounds different to all of us...to some extent; and yet we can all instantly differentiate between it and canned. Millions of words have been spilled on what that difference is, yet it is very hard to really pin down the difference, mainly I suspect because we all hear it a little differently. Massive dynamic range and purity of tone is probably the major difference between live and reproduced, but maybe something else is going on. The problem with the language is that the word neutrality and sterility don’t really apply to the sound that we hear...at least imho.
Neutral compared to what? Sterile compared to what?

Like you correctly stated...all too simplistic.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I go to at least one unamplified gig a fortnight.
Despite loving it unreservedly to start, I actually don’t crave that sound at home (even if it could be achieved).
It is what it is.
Home audio is what it is.
Not a lot intersects.
Live remains a fascinating comparator, but Im not particularly looking to replicate the experience.
Sorry if that’s not what I’m meant to say.

 

[Folsom]

Led zep sounds raw, primal, like the way they want you to hear them.

Funny, I would not use that word in Mike's system. At no time did get that impression that is would belt out a very raw sounding part of music, if it were truly raw. What I heard was more like a mapping system that was like when someone on a SciFi show grabs a floating diagram and uses two arms to blow it up across the room. When you listen to chamber orchestras, they are literally life sized representations, like you could walk around this map to each player, and see where they are at and the persons on either side of them. For being able to do that, Mike has balanced it really well without losing everything left and right in the process. It can get loud and quiet, and isn't like using a magnifying glass. It is surely one of the best stereos in the world for being able to layout the soundstage it does. And it does it by never sounding hampered in anyway. It will never tell you that it struggled. Even if it did, you'd never know. That's one of the very special attributes is that the entire presentation is extremely uniform, unwavering, to what it's playing. That isn't saying that I believe it is perfectly portraying something for everyone's personal taste, or that uniformity is everyone's goal, or that it doesn't have anywhere to grow, but rather that you can't find a "seem" in it to poke at. There are qualities some people won't find in it, that they're looking for, but even so the presentation itself for what the stereo is, and where it has gone gives consistence a bar for other stereos looking to achieve the same mark.

I myself look for different qualities, and prefer different attributes. Rawness ability is one. Were Mike to go on adventure looking for that I think he'd be disappointed because his stereo would likely shift away from the world class attribute it does have, that he's work hard for, and values.

 

[bonzo75]

I don't think raw is the word to describe an attribute of Mike's system. Raw is a word to describe how Plant's primal screams sound out of Mike's system. There is a big difference where you use the word raw. I used it in a context of the system having the ability to transform as per the recording. Yes, it was very mellifluous on other recordings

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oops, here we go again LOL!
Endless pages discussing the definition of neutrality, transparency, coherency, over the years
We can add “raw” to the list...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Could Mike’s excellent outcome be the simple confluence of a near ideal room acoustic, very low noise power, SS amps with more than a hint of tubes tone density, very accurate analog, very analog like digital, grunge busting balanced power and grounding, vibration eating Herzan and Tana?
With no stone unturned in finding cost no object over performing components, superb synergy of these, and an environment to get the most out of them?

 

[bonzo75]

Could Mike’s excellent outcome be the simple confluence of a near ideal room acoustic, very low noise power, SS amps with more than a hint of tubes tone density, very accurate analog, very analog like digital, grunge busting balanced power and grounding, vibration eating Herzan and Tana?
With no stone unturned in finding cost no object over performing components, superb synergy of these, and an environment to get the most out of them?

Now that you put it that way, it's really very simple

 

[spiritofmusic]

Absolutely Ked, just like everything in audio.

 

[Folsom]

Now that you put it that way, it's really very simple

 

[Ron Resnick]

What people are discussing is the way to achieve that outcome. Some SS systems that attempt to let the recording flow through end up with it not flowing through and not sounding lifelike but sounding soulless. Then they add a color to give it some warmth. But it's the balance and they go one way or the other over balance. In Mike's the recording flows through and sounds warm and real, but Ron does not believe in that topology to create realism, and rightly so because in most cases that topology results in a different outcome. As per forums, anything valve is colored and anything like spectral is neutral, critics calling that neutral sterile. All too simplistic

Kedar, I believe you when you report that Mike uses that system building topology to achieve the goal. I DO believe in that topology philosophy, at least in theory. I also largely believe nowadays in that topology philosophy in practice, as illustrated most clearly by my selection of the American Sound AS-2000 over a warmer VPI or a Dr. Feickert.

But in practice I am not going to elevate that philosophy over the competing imperative of creating a sound to which I enjoy listening.

Putting it another way I think you are (totally understandably) going by my traditional philosophy of creating a sound by balancing components to net to warmth, as you understood it from me over the past few years; whereas, with this future system, I am trying to tack more closely to the Mike philosophy in which you have made me a believer.

 

[bonzo75]

No, I was referring to SS topology... Neutral SS components, or neutral cart

 

[microstrip]

(...) I think I am largely putting this neutrality theory into practice -- the Pendragons and the American Sound I think are both genuinely neutral. The SME is probably close to neutral. The ZYX UNIverse Premium may not be as neutral as the Ortfon Anna, but I prefer the ZYX.(...)

Ron,

Why should we consider that this list is "genuinely neutral"? Because a few people think so?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Microstrip, mainly because, as I wrote, “I think” so. With my view about the American Sound being neutral as confirmed by people whose ears I trust, including DDK and Mike and Kedar and Steve.

 

[Folsom]

Interesting, Ron, I thought you leaned more toward Keith's sound.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Folsom, I like Keith’s sound very much!

 

[ddk]

What is sterility...what is neutrality, when it comes to the sound of music?

Whenever I play a live instrument in my room as an example of what a real instrument sounds like, none of the descriptors above apply. The instrument is neither neutral...or sterile. Instead, it is dynamic as all get out, explodes sound into the room, and is extremely precise in how it renders tone. Warmth...or what I perceive warmth to mean, is what it is.
In real life, whenever I have played on a stage or in a studio, the sound that is sought after is one of purity....relating to clarity and purity of tone and timbre.
So, what is a sterile sounding system....or a neutral sounding system? If the system sounds “lifelike” to our ears and fools us into thinking we are listening to live and unamplified instruments and voices in our room....isn’t that the goal?
I suspect that Ron is looking for that...and aren’t we all doing the same therefore?

In a system context neutral and natural for me means that system doesn't add to or subtract from the recording and will allow the performance to come through as intended by the performer and/or engineers.

David

 

[Mike Lavigne]

In a system context neutral and natural for me means that system doesn't add to or subtract from the recording and will allow the performance to come through as intended by the performer and/or engineers.

David

+1