I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!

[Tango]

so that's a 240 pound plinth in the pelican case? woah!!! i'll need my 265 pound son over to horse that around. I just assumed you would not have such a deadweight in that case. but now I've been warned.

and.......it's all arrived there at Tang's. cool deal!

It is not my picture Mike. I think it is Christian’s. I stole the picture from David .

I like flavors Mike. I hear people saying many different versions of what natural and what closer to real. My system can provide several versions of what they talk about. That doesn’t mean I don’t have the version I like and perceive as real most. What I also find is different recordings, type of music, old or new records, sound best in different tt and combo of arm/cart.

I am crossing my fingers on SAT versus 3012R if you know what I mean.

Oh.. Christian is 6’6” and he complained about weight. Think of me, a tiny little Asian with bad back. I will have to hire a Thai weight lifting team.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Ron Resnick]

Those photos . . . wow!

I know y’all don’t like my theoretical triangulating but I think the SAT on AS-2000 is going to be on the analytical/clinical side.

 

[ddk]

Professional work from David. First grade.

View attachment 38545

Come to papa.

Tang

The picture is of Chris's AS-2000, literary they packed the case and closed the factory for New Year, I didn't even get a chance to photograph the other case before they stuck in the back of my car! Tang's AS-2000 along with Chris's motor should be ready by end of this month, I'll take better pictures before packing it.

The rack is already in production and we should see the first units also at the end of the month or early March, expect it to weigh a ton!

david

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It is not my picture Mike. I think it is Christian’s. I stole the picture from David .

ok, tried to connect the dots with a (or multiple) missing dot (s).

I like flavors Mike. I hear people saying many different versions of what natural and what closer to real. My system can provide several versions of what they talk about. That doesn’t mean I don’t have the version I like and perceive as real most. What I also find is different recordings, type of music, old or new records, sound best in different tt and combo of arm/cart.

I am crossing my fingers on SAT versus 3012R if you know what I mean.

we all have our own approach. I enjoy reading your adventures through your own varied choices. me, i'm more a one favorite way sort of guy. good to do it our own ways.

Oh.. Christian is 6’6” and he complained about weight. Think of me, a tiny little Asian with bad back. I will have to hire a Thai weight lifting team.

Kind regards,
Tang

i'm a skinny kinda-tall old guy myself, avoiding having a bad back.

I have some local 'big guys' I can get in. like the team it took to raise my MM7's back 6 years ago. those were 750 pounds 'each tower' and took 5 of us.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Those photos . . . wow!

I know y’all don’t like my theoretical triangulating but I think the SAT on AS-2000 is going to be on the analytical/clinical side.

we look at things differently.

to me I view that combo as truth on truth. and allow it to take me to that ultimate reality......the music is not always bloom on warmth.....sometimes it's nasty and snarly. gimmie all of that.

there is 'you can't handle the truth'......and 'you can'.

what I don't like is distortion.....at either end of it. and balancing one distortion with another distortion is exactly what I try to avoid. that means information is wasted.

but i'm not saying there is a 'wrong' way to do it, so I get your approach. it is interesting that you picked up on my Koetsu RSP comments and now list that as a cart choice. and I agree it would fit what you like. maybe your ultimate 'always' fully dependable bloom-mobile.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The picture is of Chris's AS-2000, literary they packed the case and closed the factory for New Year, I didn't even get a chance to photograph the other case before they stuck in the back of my car! Tang's AS-2000 along with Chris's motor should be ready by end of this month, I'll take better pictures before packing it.

excellent.

The rack is already in production and we should see the first units also at the end of the month or early March, expect it to weigh a ton!

david

David,

thanks. that get's me excited. it's starting to feel real.

Mike

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

excellent.



David,

thanks. that get's me excited. it's starting to feel real.

Mike

I can provide extra grunt if you need another back to break, would love to participate in the set up.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I can provide extra grunt if you need another back to break, would love to participate in the set up.

noted and appreciate the offer.

expect a call.

 

[lordcloud]

we look at things differently.

to me I view that combo as truth on truth. and allow it to take me to that ultimate reality......the music is not always bloom on warmth.....sometimes it's nasty and snarly. gimmie all of that.

there is 'you can't handle the truth'......and 'you can'.

what I don't like is distortion.....at either end of it. and balancing one distortion with another distortion is exactly what I try to avoid. that means information is wasted.

This is also my truth. I want it all. Warmth when it's warm. Cool when it's cold.

I don't want flavored, I want flavors.

 

[Ron Resnick]

we look at things differently.

to me I view that combo as truth on truth. and allow it to take me to that ultimate reality......the music is not always bloom on warmth.....sometimes it's nasty and snarly. gimmie all of that.

there is 'you can't handle the truth'......and 'you can'.

what I don't like is distortion.....at either end of it. and balancing one distortion with another distortion is exactly what I try to avoid. that means information is wasted.

but i'm not saying there is a 'wrong' way to do it, so I get your approach. it is interesting that you picked up on my Koetsu RSP comments and now list that as a cart choice. and I agree it would fit what you like. maybe your ultimate 'always' fully dependable bloom-mobile.

Yes, Mike, I think I understand. I fully respect your philosophy of always selecting the most neutral and lowest distortion and lowest coloration option.

If one does that consistently then one ends up with a very pure, unadulterated neutral canvas upon which the music can be heard without anything being added or subtracted, as opposed to balancing colorations and then netting to zero those conflicting colorations — a process which must cause information to be lost or distortion to be added.

I like very much this philosophy in theory; I just don’t seem to be able to make it work for me in practice.

We all talk like it is a given that the Koetsu stone body cartridges are superior (more transparent, higher resolution) to the RSP but, for me, the RSP may be closer to my aural vision of an improved Benz Micro Ruby 2 than the stone bodies. This also is why I keep the LP-S MR (Marty’s favourite) in the running.

 

[Folsom]

If one does that consistently then one ends up with a very pure, unadulterated neutral canvas upon which the music can be heard without anything being added or subtracted, as opposed to balancing colorations and then netting to zero those conflicting colorations — a process which must cause information to be lost or distortion to be added.

We all talk like it is a given that the Koetsu stone body cartridges are superior (more transparent, higher resolution) to the RSP but, for me, the RSP may be closer to my aural vision of an improved Benz Micro Ruby 2 than the stone bodies. This also is why I keep the LP-S MR (Marty’s favourite) in the running.

Good philosophy desires but I have yet to find a single audiophile that can relate what that means to another audiophile, and end up with the same equipment choices. And a farther distance is audiophiles that can signify the relationship between component characteristics and the sound.

Frankly fact of the matter is speakers and rooms have so many conflicts of interest to what we're trying to do, that it makes more sense to go with what we like, more than try to justify it.

For example, an Entreq grounding box might bring a balance to a stereo, where it sound subjectively correct. But it is 100% manipulation of the way the signal goes through different parts. It does it be adding noise. That doesn't mean it does something wrong but it isn't an objectionist function.

For me the test of any stereo being remotely near objectionist is if vinyl albums sound drastically different from one to the next. It is as if you changed components in the stereo. Then you're getting somewhere. (also MFSL should sound bad, like their true character)

Too bad your stereo isn't up Ron, it would be fun for you to grab a few albums I have and we could compare notes on what we think about them.

 

[bonzo75]

Every system I heard that aimed to do neutrality sounded sterile and lifeless. Except Mike's. It is not possible to guess what that sound can be by relating previous experiences and extrapolating. When I visited Mike's I was ready to text a couple of friends that this is another high spending wanker who has a lifeless SS cone based sound. Instead I texted this is the best system I have heard. Next day I texted I was wrong, this is far better than I thought yesterday.

He lets the recording flow through perfectly. When you change from transistor based mastered 33 rpm to tube mastered 45 rpm (analog productions vs classic records scheherazade..) The jump is huuuge.

Every note of every recording leaves you mesmerized. Led zep sounds raw, primal, like the way they want you to hear them. Audiophile crap sounds like at a hifi show. Beethoven 9th tuttis are unraveled 100 times better than you will ever hear them in a system.

Yes, I will never try or suggest that approach, because I am sure most will end up with a sterile system. I will go the SET horn route. Much easier, and gets me a lot of way there.

But then I will never have a koetsu like cart as my primary cart. Maybe for fun. I think the SPU despite its limitations is more real than koetsu, though again it will never be my primary cart. And I will never use sweet sounding tubes like the standard 300b.

The reason I say this is Ron seems to latch on to statements where neutral = sterile, highs = bright, and seems to favor words like sweet, lesser highs, or the verbal description associated with koetsu. While I understand that from a Lyra perspective, having sat together with Ron for some listening sessions I think he will regret if he buys components that go as per the koetsu description and ignores some that might, on the forum, sound a bit like the Lyra description. He might find that Mike has the most sweet sounding sound, created through a neutral system. Because real violin, real flute, real clarinet, is damn sweet sounding, more so than a koetsu color. And based on the speakers he has chosen, the Mike model suits him best.

 

[microstrip]

Professional work from David. First grade.

View attachment 38545

Come to papa.

Tang

Great work - it looks as I expected it to be! Thanks for posting - Occam's razor again!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, as you know I rate Paul of Z Axis Audio’s room as a nigh on perfect blend of uber neutrality and total listenability.
At his, neutral means invisible and no sonic fingerprint, allowing the music to fully communicate.
I left that demo with total respect, and of all the ones I’ve heard has given me most food for thought (Barry’s SGM/horns demos being the other).
All other demos I’ve heard, and my system, have multiple issues making neutrality/immersiveness an audio mirage.

 

[microstrip]

Good philosophy desires but I have yet to find a single audiophile that can relate what that means to another audiophile, and end up with the same equipment choices. And a farther distance is audiophiles that can signify the relationship between component characteristics and the sound.

Frankly fact of the matter is speakers and rooms have so many conflicts of interest to what we're trying to do, that it makes more sense to go with what we like, more than try to justify it.

For example, an Entreq grounding box might bring a balance to a stereo, where it sound subjectively correct. But it is 100% manipulation of the way the signal goes through different parts. It does it be adding noise. That doesn't mean it does something wrong but it isn't an objectionist function.

(...)

Great comments - either the part on individual preference or on manipulation. Most of our tweaks and optimizations manipulate the signal to our preference - but audiophiles love to think they are approaching neutrality. The current nomenclature on "grounding" devices is highly misleading.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh I totally get that.
I now relabel transparency as ability to connect w pleasure centres in the brain, and ease of releasing endorphins.
Not some guff about “true to source” etc
Does a change make those buttons easier to press? Yes? Check, more transparent.
For me, my tubes, analog, full range drivers do this, a synergy that talks to me, helped in spades by a new room acoustic with a sweet signature, cables that major on tone, balanced power that majors on heft, vibration isolation that majors on air and imaging.
Mix the ingredients in the pot, stir, and voila!...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Every system I heard that aimed to do neutrality sounded sterile and lifeless. Except Mike's. It is not possible to guess what that sound can be by relating previous experiences and extrapolating. When I visited Mike's I was ready to text a couple of friends that this is another high spending wanker who has a lifeless SS cone based sound. Instead I texted this is the best system I have heard. Next day I texted I was wrong, this is far better than I thought yesterday.

He lets the recording flow through perfectly. When you change from transistor based mastered 33 rpm to tube mastered 45 rpm (analog productions vs classic records scheherazade..) The jump is huuuge.

Every note of every recording leaves you mesmerized. Led zep sounds raw, primal, like the way they want you to hear them. Audiophile crap sounds like at a hifi show. Beethoven 9th tuttis are unraveled 100 times better than you will ever hear them in a system.

Yes, I will never try or suggest that approach, because I am sure most will end up with a sterile system. I will go the SET horn route. Much easier, and gets me a lot of way there.

But then I will never have a koetsu like cart as my primary cart. Maybe for fun. I think the SPU despite its limitations is more real than koetsu, though again it will never be my primary cart. And I will never use sweet sounding tubes like the standard 300b.

The reason I say this is Ron seems to latch on to statements where neutral = sterile, highs = bright, and seems to favor words like sweet, lesser highs, or the verbal description associated with koetsu. While I understand that from a Lyra perspective, having sat together with Ron for some listening sessions I think he will regret if he buys components that go as per the koetsu description and ignores some that might, on the forum, sound a bit like the Lyra description. He might find that Mike has the most sweet sounding sound, created through a neutral system. Because real violin, real flute, real clarinet, is damn sweet sounding, more so than a koetsu color. And based on the speakers he has chosen, the Mike model suits him best.

Sometimes I communicate with you in shorthand.

I am a little confused. I’m a not sure what you are criticising.

I wrote above that “I like very much this philosophy in theory; I just don’t seem to be able to make it work for me in practice.”

You agree that you like the Mike approach in theory (and in practice in Mike’s system) but that only Mike’s system can achieve it. I think I am largely putting this neutrality theory into practice -- the Pendragons and the American Sound I think are both genuinely neutral. The SME is probably close to neutral. The ZYX UNIverse Premium may not be as neutral as the Ortfon Anna, but I prefer the ZYX.

If you are correct that only Mike’s system can achieve sweetness by solving for neutrality every step of the way, then what else are we to do but attempt to execute the same philosophy but then tweak slightly to taste so that we wind up with systems to which we actually genuinely enjoy listening?

PS: Just because I write about and contemplate the Koetsu RSP doesn’t mean I’m buying it. The platinum Koetsus are likely too low in output for the Io to handle without too much noise.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Every system I heard that aimed to do neutrality sounded sterile and lifeless. Except Mike's. It is not possible to guess what that sound can be by relating previous experiences and extrapolating. When I visited Mike's I was ready to text a couple of friends that this is another high spending wanker who has a lifeless SS cone based sound. Instead I texted this is the best system I have heard. Next day I texted I was wrong, this is far better than I thought yesterday.

He lets the recording flow through perfectly. When you change from transistor based mastered 33 rpm to tube mastered 45 rpm (analog productions vs classic records scheherazade..) The jump is huuuge.

Every note of every recording leaves you mesmerized. Led zep sounds raw, primal, like the way they want you to hear them. Audiophile crap sounds like at a hifi show. Beethoven 9th tuttis are unraveled 100 times better than you will ever hear them in a system.

Yes, I will never try or suggest that approach, because I am sure most will end up with a sterile system. I will go the SET horn route. Much easier, and gets me a lot of way there.

But then I will never have a koetsu like cart as my primary cart. Maybe for fun. I think the SPU despite its limitations is more real than koetsu, though again it will never be my primary cart. And I will never use sweet sounding tubes like the standard 300b.

The reason I say this is Ron seems to latch on to statements where neutral = sterile, highs = bright, and seems to favor words like sweet, lesser highs, or the verbal description associated with koetsu. While I understand that from a Lyra perspective, having sat together with Ron for some listening sessions I think he will regret if he buys components that go as per the koetsu description and ignores some that might, on the forum, sound a bit like the Lyra description. He might find that Mike has the most sweet sounding sound, created through a neutral system. Because real violin, real flute, real clarinet, is damn sweet sounding, more so than a koetsu color. And based on the speakers he has chosen, the Mike model suits him best.

Sometimes I communicate with you in shorthand.

I am a little confused. I’m a not sure what you are criticising.

I wrote above that “I like very much this philosophy in theory; I just don’t seem to be able to make it work for me in practice.”

You agree that you like the Mike approach in theory (and in practice in Mike’s system) but that only Mike’s system can achieve it. I think I am largely putting this neutrality theory into practice -- the Pendragons and the American Sound I think are both genuinely neutral. The SME is probably close to neutral. The ZYX UNIverse Premium may not be as neutral as the Ortfon Anna, but I prefer the ZYX.

If you are correct that only Mike’s system can achieve sweetness by solving for neutrality every step of the way, then what else are we to do but attempt to execute the same philosophy but then tweak slightly to taste so that we wind up with systems to which we actually genuinely enjoy listening?

PS: Just because I write about and contemplate the Koetsu RSP doesn’t mean I’m buying it. The platinum Koetsus are likely too low in output for the Io to handle without too much noise.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes but recently some of your replies have been fast to latch onto the koetsu type of sound and away from the Lyra sound. I think with the Aesthetix your system is well balanced. And aesthetix and zyx, at least for me, are the right balance between neutrality and sterility. Neither of them are colored like some really colored components, and if you do koetsu or SETs of a koetsu nature, it might go too far down one path. Theoretically difficult to say which way things could go, and you might require a Lyra to balance it all out. So just saying you should be open to that idea.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, you’re in a perfect place to give yr opinions on this.
You’ve heard systems that aspire to neutrality, but result in sterility.
Mike has aimed for neutrality, achieved it, together w 100% listenability.
He’s too modest to blow his own trumpet.
But you can comment as to what you think he’s got right in a major way.
And why then if the rest of us follow his formula, we wouldn’t easily succeed the same way.
For me the only system I’ve heard that truly melts into invisibility and leaves only the music, is Paul’s of Z Axis Audio w his DD tt/hybrid amps/modded MLs/balanced pwr, followed closely by Barry’s w his SGM/45 tubes/AG Duos.
Many others just fail outright, others are spectacular in some ways and unbalanced in others (mine included).
It’s a joy to hear those systems that are so neutral they’re self effacing, just removing as many veils as possible. Mike’s system obv fits this very well indeed.