I know this is an age old debate, but I need a technical explanation why one would choose tubes over solid state

[Mike Lavigne]

They know it is not true ... Damping and frequency response limit bass performance in tube designs.

agree.

Generic claims on topology are meaningless most of the time as they depend on matching between gear and we can always find exceptions - e.g. the 20 power tubes each Atmasphere MA2 will probably break much of our views on OTLs.

in 2001 i had the MA2 OTL's and the Tenor 75 watt OTL's in my system one after the other; this was right after i had the big Mark Levinson 33 mono blocks. at that time still had my Wilson WP 6.0's and ML 32 preamp. a few months later got my Kharma's and ditched the ML32.

preferred the Tenor to the MA2's in my small room overall, the MA2's very neutral and linear more like the 33's. maybe in a larger room the power of the MA2's might have had a different result. the Tenor was also very linear in the bass. to be fair the Tenor's ended up being unreliable, not a stable circuit, but that was discovered 6 months/a year later. still......i love the Tenor OTL sound all around to this day.

 

[Al M.]

A friend of mine has a very good tube system. I am always amazed how immersive the sound is when I visit. Sweet and emotional. But after a while I find that too much and I want more neutrality, more grip and control.

If grip and control is lacking then the combination of amp and speaker is not very good, with the speaker being too demanding for the amp. Alternatively, if the speaker is not too demanding, the tube amp itself is not very good.

 

[tima]

Tim, it was you who made it about me by misreading my post, and by specifically mentioning me in your reply as saying something that I did not (making a "generalized statement").

Perhaps next time you can be more careful.

I'll try to remember you are sensitive and you really enjoy telling everyone how good your stereo sounds.

 

[Al M.]

I'll try to remember you are sensitive and you really enjoy telling everyone how good your stereo sounds.

Instead of apologizing for your mistake, in an attempt to deflect from it you try to keep poking.

Fine job, Tim, congratulations. I am sure readers of this thread will be thoroughly impressed by your attitude .

 

[DasguteOhr]

Need to see independent bench measurements before hand waving ..!

Most tube Specs given are never met ..

Is audioworkshop diy kit , OPT 8-fold nested are engel, germany
Two mods i have done CLC powersupply , feedback from 4.7k to 8.2k resistor for my speakers best sounds.You can move in the range 4.7- 10kohms without endangering the stability of the amp
Build your own and judge yourself.for the best el34 amp i ever had i run it psyedotriode mode 17watt/ 8ohms.

Programm

Mains transformer reinhöfer model 52.26

NT_gross

 

[livinon2wheels]

Do certain specifications guarantee preference for gear meeting those specs? Do certain specifications guarantee appealing sound?

On what basis do we judge specifications as valued? The value placed on certain specifications is itself a value judgement based on certain beliefs. How do we evaluate those value judgements and beliefs? Should turn to 'experts' who will cite more specifications?

Perhaps the notion that specs do not always predict personal preference is difficult to accept if you place a high value on the belief that specifications can tell us what is good, what sounds good. A few manufacturers will tell us "it sounds like that because ..." or "that topology can't really produce strong ..." and their answers correlate to the circuits they design or the products they make.

What you basically are asking, to my understanding, is: why do people make the choices that they do? That may be more of a market research question -- I suspect there is a lot of money spent on the psychology of buying throughout every industry. Here it makes for interesting discussion but, with respect, I doubt you'll find an answer.

In all honesty so do I, but it seems to be a question worth asking, and the variety of answers are surely food for thought. I am in perhaps a somewhat atypical position in that I am replacing in quantity a bunch of equipment lost in a house fire. This means I am trying to do this with an open mind, and trying to put erroneous thinking aside and make honest fair and appropriate decisions about where the money goes. I will only get to do this once and kind of therefore have to get it right. That means taking a fresh look at everything including any personal biases I might have for one thing over another. In the final analysis I will make some mistakes in the process I feel sure, but I want to minimize them as much as possible. At this point in my life I don't have extra income to throw away on a boondoggle. So asking these kinds of questions is for me necessary. Getting input from others is part of the process of gathering facts. And I am new to this forum and thought this would be a good way to test the waters and see what sorts of enthusiasts there are here. I appreciate the input from anyone who took time to respond to my questions.

 

[livinon2wheels]

Like some of us older audiophiles, I’ve been crazy about music for over 50 years. Back then, tubes gear DID sound better. I was sure tubes were being phased out, so I bought as many tubes that stereos commonly used. All my gear is still tubed and I have so much fun substituting my incredible stash of tubes from the 1960’s into my gear to achieve a sound that really helps my system. All this at no cost because I already own too damn many tubes. I think SS gear is also incredible now, but why change at this point!

Ah, this is the way we have always done and it works well enough for you so you are sticking with it. Given your supply of tubes I can see why you have taken this approach. I bet you can even recommend which tubes are better for a given amplifier design. I can appreciate your position and your accumulated knowledge. Thanks for your response, if I ever get into tubes, you might be a great resource.

 

[livinon2wheels]

Is audioworkshop diy kit , OPT 8-fold nested are engel, germany
Two mods i have done CLC powersupply , feedback from 4.7k to 8.2k resistor for my speakers best sounds.You can move in the range 4.7- 10kohms without endangering the stability of the amp
Build your own and judge yourself.for the best el34 amp i ever had i run it psyedotriode mode 17watt/ 8ohms.

Programm

View attachment 158521View attachment 158522

Mains transformer reinhöfer model 52.26

NT_gross

I appreciate you posting this schematic though I have a question and wonder if this is not a misprint....look at the taps on the output transformer, the bottom tube has a tap from the output transformer going to the control grid, but the top tube has its corresponding output transformer tap going to the grid between the suppressor grid and control grid. Addditionally the inputs to the output tubes seem to be wired incorrectly on the lower tube as the input is going to the grid in between the control grid and the suppressor grid. What am I seeing here and not understanding? BTW, this looks like a great design and probably does sound good. I am a long way from buying or building another amplifier.

 

[Ron Resnick]

it measures better than tubes on any parameter you can pick. In terms of cost, SS wins hands down

If the idea of hi-fi is to get as close to zero background noise and as close to having a straight wire with gain as possible

The questions you are asking drive your answer to solid-state.

Maybe you are asking the wrong questions? Or if not the wrong questions, questions different than the questions the people who like tubes ask themselves?

 

[Ron Resnick]

There is no objective measurement

In a subjective hobby I believe that objective measurements will not lead you to the answer you seek.

more faithful to the recording.

You write in a way that suggests to me that you believe this is the objective of the hobby. But this actually is merely one of at least four possible major objectives of the hobby.

This may very well be the objective of the hobby for you personally. But it is not the objective of the hobby for every hobbyist. It is not my objective.

 

[livinon2wheels]

It has nothing to do with gazing at tubes. Its all about the sound. If you end up owning a good tube amp and a speaker that is compatible with it, you will understand. You may still want to use SS. But their is nothing like ownership to help you understand.

Ah, I get it, you just gotta drink the koolaid....( teasing ). There is so much in life that is an experience that can be understood only by living it. I guess this is one of those things. I had tube equipment as a teenager and one of the things that always gave me pause was when I needed to troubleshoot it and I started thinking about where the high voltages were hiding, just waiting to nail the unwary or misplaced voltmeter probe. Two experiences from high school shop class...class project was to build a 5 tube AM radio, each person had their own to build. KIt quality was definitely not nearly as good as Heathkit. No where close. But I built my radio and it didnt work...So I am checking voltages and was on the hot side of the main power supply filter capacitor and the probe slipped grounding B+ simultaneously blowing up the filter cap, nearly melting the power cord and shutting down all power in 1/2 of the shop. Not one of my finer moments. Then the shop teacher was showing us a bit about how to work on a tube type television. The high voltage tube in the power supply for the CRT had a fair amount of voltage on the cap on top of that tube...so he took a pair of insulated needle nose pliers and drew a nice little 1/2 inch arc off the cap of that tube to show there was in fact high voltage on it. Unfortunately he did not notice the hole in the rubber insulation on the pliers and the arc from cap lifted him out of the metal chair he was sitting in about 18" much to his chagrin and the delight of my classmates. That was the end of TV repair lessons for the day as you might imagine.

 

[livinon2wheels]

In a subjective hobby I believe that objective measurements will not lead you to the answer you seek.



You write in a way that suggests to me that you believe this is the objective of the hobby. But this actually is merely one of at least four possible major objectives of the hobby.

This may very well be the objective of the hobby for you personally. But it is not the objective of the hobby for every hobbyist. It is not my objective.

You are correct, I speak from a position of knowing I have my own peculiar biases and that they ultimately will be given consideration in my personal choices. And to your point this is a subjective hobby, I agree it largely is...but certainly not completely. So taking measurements and applying what they tell you in making choices is a skill I think most of us with a technical background try to do. And those without the tech background will rely on some other set of attributes they have to make their choices. I love the music, but I also love the magic that the equipment can work towards that end, hearing previously recorded music as the artist(s) intended it to be heard. Its gratifying when you can conjure up a sweet mix of equipment that takes you to that magic place where you can suspend reality for the illusion you have created. Once in a while I have experienced this. I want very much to do so again.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I appreciate you posting this schematic though I have a question and wonder if this is not a misprint....look at the taps on the output transformer, the bottom tube has a tap from the output transformer going to the control grid, but the top tube has its corresponding output transformer tap going to the grid between the suppressor grid and control grid. Addditionally the inputs to the output tubes seem to be wired incorrectly on the lower tube as the input is going to the grid in between the control grid and the suppressor grid. What am I seeing here and not understanding? BTW, this looks like a great design and probably does sound good. I am a long way from buying or building another amplifier.

Yes, you are right, it is the original shematic and the error has crept in

 

[livinon2wheels]

The questions you are asking drive your answer to solid-state.

Maybe you are asking the wrong questions? Or if not the wrong questions, questions different than the questions the people who like tubes ask themselves?

Ron, I am asking myself all kinds of questions at this time, reconsidering lots of long held beliefs, I am rebuilding a lifetime's collection of sound and video gear lost in a home fire. Much of what I had was vintage gear, some pieces highly prized, others not so much but they worked and worked well enough I did not feel the need to upgrade them. Given that much of that is totally lost now, I only get one chance to do this and I want to do it right, perhaps check off a few things that have been on the bucket list for a while, or find good reasons to check them off the list and forget about them because there is something better available now. So this runs the gamut from speakers, electronics, turntable or maybe a good CD player and forget records altogether. All possibilities are on the table until I find a reason to remove them from consideration. Its a daunting task I had more music systems than I have fingers. And now I don't. And going forward I may deliberately decide not to have that many again. Now its about getting pieces to keep for the rest of my days. At 72 I surely have a lot fewer ones to look forward to than I have lived already. So for the future, I have a short timer's attitude. I am here for a good time, not a long time. One of my considerations is a pair of Khorns. Always wanted a pair, I have room for them (barely), and the longer I look, I am thinking the LaScala AL6 might be a better choice in every way except for bass extension. I can always add subs as needed. But this gets me a modern representation of a Horn speaker in a size I can live with. A part of me wonders whether a tube amp paired with these would be magic or not. I know many Klipsch Heritage owners go that route...I am just not sure I want to make that financial commitment.

 

[Holmz]

In all honesty so do I, but it seems to be a question worth asking, and the variety of answers are surely food for thought. I am in perhaps a somewhat atypical position in that I am replacing in quantity a bunch of equipment lost in a house fire. This means I am trying to do this with an open mind, and trying to put erroneous thinking aside and make honest fair and appropriate decisions about where the money goes. I will only get to do this once and kind of therefore have to get it right. That means taking a fresh look at everything including any personal biases I might have for one thing over another. In the final analysis I will make some mistakes in the process I feel sure, but I want to minimize them as much as possible. At this point in my life I don't have extra income to throw away on a boondoggle. So asking these kinds of questions is for me necessary. Getting input from others is part of the process of gathering facts. And I am new to this forum and thought this would be a good way to test the waters and see what sorts of enthusiasts there are here. I appreciate the input from anyone who took time to respond to my questions.

Your list should probably include:
- Fully active speakers.
- Systems with active crossovers.
- And then the usual passive speakers.

 

[tima]

I am in perhaps a somewhat atypical position in that I am replacing in quantity a bunch of equipment lost in a house fire. This means I am trying to do this with an open mind, and trying to put erroneous thinking aside and make honest fair and appropriate decisions about where the money goes. I

Sure -- I understand. I guess I would say don't overthink it. Personal preference does not need to be rational or fair.

You said you enjoyed your vintage lost-in-the-fire system. What did you like about that, and, if you care to say, what was that system.

You mentioned 'fidelity to the recording' as an objective. What I'm about to say is not meant as a criticism of that goal. How do you know when you've achieved it or gotten close to acheiving it? Personally I believe it is a goal that is impossible to meet unless you made the recording yourself and experienced the performance that is recorded.

I can understand you have a need to explore all alternatives. My unsolicited suggestion is to ask yourself what are your goals and how you would achieve them. From the hardware side I believe the most important factor for a system is the amp=speaker combination. You can get that right with tubes or solid state. Personally, my use of the sound of live acoustic music as a reference on which I base my choices determines what those choices are.

 

[adrianywu]

The original question was how tubes are technically better than solid state devices, but this question has remained unanswered.
Tubes are inherently a more linear device than solid state. The triode has the lowest distortion of all amplification devices if you look at the transfer characteristics curves. That is why tubes amps can generally employ lower NFB or even no NFB.
Tubes have very high input impedance compared to transistors. This means coupling capacitors can be of lower value. This means film capacitors as opposed to electrolytic caps, with much better performance characteristics.
Tubes operate at much higher voltages and therefore have more dynamic headroom.
Of course, solid state has its unique advantages too, and most of the disadvantages can be mitigated with proper circuit design.
There is no reason why one has to stay with one or the other. Each type of device has its proper place in a design. Solid state excels in rectification, regulation, and as current sinks/sources etc, and should be used as such. When done correctly, you get the best of both worlds with an end result that is superior to restricting to one type of device only.

 

[Al M.]

There is no reason why one has to stay with one or the other. Each type of device has its proper place in a design. Solid state excels in rectification, regulation, and as current sinks/sources etc, and should be used as such. When done correctly, you get the best of both worlds with an end result that is superior to restricting to one type of device only.

That is the philosophy of the designer of my Octave amplification. Use tubes as the exclusive amplification devices, but use transistors for regulation, rectification etc. He wants to achieve with solid state circuits an optimal, stable environment in which the tubes operate at their best.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, I am asking myself all kinds of questions at this time, reconsidering lots of long held beliefs, I am rebuilding a lifetime's collection of sound and video gear lost in a home fire. Much of what I had was vintage gear, some pieces highly prized, others not so much but they worked and worked well enough I did not feel the need to upgrade them. Given that much of that is totally lost now, I only get one chance to do this and I want to do it right, perhaps check off a few things that have been on the bucket list for a while, or find good reasons to check them off the list and forget about them because there is something better available now. So this runs the gamut from speakers, electronics, turntable or maybe a good CD player and forget records altogether. All possibilities are on the table until I find a reason to remove them from consideration. Its a daunting task I had more music systems than I have fingers. And now I don't. And going forward I may deliberately decide not to have that many again. Now its about getting pieces to keep for the rest of my days. At 72 I surely have a lot fewer ones to look forward to than I have lived already. So for the future, I have a short timer's attitude. I am here for a good time, not a long time. One of my considerations is a pair of Khorns. Always wanted a pair, I have room for them (barely), and the longer I look, I am thinking the LaScala AL6 might be a better choice in every way except for bass extension. I can always add subs as needed. But this gets me a modern representation of a Horn speaker in a size I can live with. A part of me wonders whether a tube amp paired with these would be magic or not. I know many Klipsch Heritage owners go that route...I am just not sure I want to make that financial commitment.

It's difficult to read this much text without paragraphs. I almost went TL,DR on you.

The over-analysis about solid-state versus tubes certainly is fun -- over-analysis is much of what we do in this hobby.

Why not set up an audition with a horn loudspeaker you are considering seriously and compare in that system with your source type of choice in a leisurely way a solid-state amplifier versus an SET amplifier?

For me the only question in that comparison is: which amplifier brings you closer to, and more emotionally connected with, the music you love?

 

[Kingrex]

Ron, I am asking myself all kinds of questions at this time, reconsidering lots of long held beliefs, I am rebuilding a lifetime's collection of sound and video gear lost in a home fire. Much of what I had was vintage gear, some pieces highly prized, others not so much but they worked and worked well enough I did not feel the need to upgrade them. Given that much of that is totally lost now, I only get one chance to do this and I want to do it right, perhaps check off a few things that have been on the bucket list for a while, or find good reasons to check them off the list and forget about them because there is something better available now. So this runs the gamut from speakers, electronics, turntable or maybe a good CD player and forget records altogether. All possibilities are on the table until I find a reason to remove them from consideration. Its a daunting task I had more music systems than I have fingers. And now I don't. And going forward I may deliberately decide not to have that many again. Now its about getting pieces to keep for the rest of my days. At 72 I surely have a lot fewer ones to look forward to than I have lived already. So for the future, I have a short timer's attitude. I am here for a good time, not a long time. One of my considerations is a pair of Khorns. Always wanted a pair, I have room for them (barely), and the longer I look, I am thinking the LaScala AL6 might be a better choice in every way except for bass extension. I can always add subs as needed. But this gets me a modern representation of a Horn speaker in a size I can live with. A part of me wonders whether a tube amp paired with these would be magic or not. I know many Klipsch Heritage owners go that route...I am just not sure I want to make that financial commitment.

It sounds like you have owned both SS and Tube equipment. You already know how they voice. It sound more like you are trying to determine if you want a horn of dynamic driver system. I hear you saying you want horns. That's great as you can get a Atmasphere Class D amp or a Similarly priced tube amp from Say Apollo Audio. Both reasonably priced.

Get a Van ZYL BB10 subwoofer to go with the horns. Its an amazing sub. Easy to set up. Very natural and real. That or a Audio Kinesis Swarm.

I would guess your not going down a rabbit hole of cables. You will make your own. The issue is really, what source. As in, preamp and TT or DAC. Again, Atmasphere makes a kick butt preamp with built in Phono preamp. So now your left trying to find a TT.

Did you loose all your records? If you did, I would go digital and be happy. Its so good if you take the time to set up the digital backbone. As in the Modem, router and switch properly.