I know this is an age old debate, but I need a technical explanation why one would choose tubes over solid state

[microstrip]

(...) When choosing audio components I have never given a higher priority to adhearance to some technical rule or specification over lifelike sonic quality. (...)

Well, I always discard poor built quality, low reliability and poorly measuring in specific areas equipment. In fact, if I am not able to get measurements I do not consider it seriously. We can't use measurements to rank equipment, but they are extremely useful.

 

[Kingrex]

Yeah I get that...I have a tech background and am trying to understand why tube sound is pleasing for many people when the specs say they should be buying something else. Not throwing rocks here at anyone for their choices but trying to understand them. I have to agree though there is something about gazing on a bunch of tubes lit up...watching the tubes glow I suppose for some is like sitting and staring at a fire in the fireplace...there is no logic to it, but its enjoyable to do just the same. Maybe its embracing the whole nostalgic experience, old designs experienced in their best possible form today. It is curious to me what parts of this hobby really grab people, and tube devotion, for lack of a better term for it, is one that brings many to their knees.
I appreciate the story about Johnson, when I was going to tech school, they were still teaching tubes, but they were also teaching transistors and the early DIP integrated circuits. It was a lot to wrap your head around. But I always found tube circuits easier to understand and to troubleshoot too. So in that sense I liked tubes way more than solid state. Some of my favorite gadgets were tube based, but I remember my first exposure to stereo hifi was solid state driving AR3a speakers. This was my dad's system which had just been upgraded from a mono AR2 driven by a twenty watt tube Griefkit amp to a 35 wpc Griefkit solid state amp... to say the difference was startling is a huge understatement. And in the world of tube amps the Heath Willliamson amp was an excellent design but it couldnt hold a candle to that early SS amp. Not to my ears.

It has nothing to do with gazing at tubes. Its all about the sound. If you end up owning a good tube amp and a speaker that is compatible with it, you will understand. You may still want to use SS. But their is nothing like ownership to help you understand.

 

[microstrip]

Yes, I know of cases where transistors had to be replaced in SS amps and the experience of the person was not fun.

I think that if we consider it from a large statistics point of view in general SS amplifiers are much more reliable than tube ones. Replacing transistors is usually an easy job, unless the service person does not know how to do it properly.

The "maintenance" issue of tube amps is a strawman. My Octave power amp even shuts itself off when a fault in a tube is detected.

Your Octave, as my VTL Siegfried II are well built top quality tube amplifiers - it is not a typical "tube amp". Anyway, IMO the big problem with tube amplifiers is the quality of tubes and the fact that people do not carry regular maintenance of tubes. Tube amplifiers should have hour counters and tubes must be replaced before they become faulty - many of them do not die in peace, contrary to what many people believe. And surely, many are poorly designed considering susceptibility to mains fluctuations.

 

[Al M.]

I think that if we consider it from a large statistics point of view in general SS amplifiers are much more reliable than tube ones. Replacing transistors is usually an easy job, unless the service person does not know how to do it properly.

Point taken.

Your Octave, as my VTL Siegfried II are well built top quality tube amplifiers - it is not a typical "tube amp".

I can take that...

Anyway, IMO the big problem with tube amplifiers is the quality of tubes and the fact that people do not carry regular maintenance of tubes. Tube amplifiers should have hour counters and tubes must be replaced before they become faulty - many of them do not die in peace, contrary to what many people believe. And surely, many are poorly designed considering susceptibility to mains fluctuations.

Agreed. With my previous tube amps and some tubes therein I did have my share of headaches.

 

[Al M.]

.And in the world of tube amps the Heath Willliamson amp was an excellent design but it couldnt hold a candle to that early SS amp. Not to my ears.

Then it was not an excellent design after all.

 

[2fastdriving]

Timely subject, as I have been contemplating changing from my beloved tubes to SS. I just don't know if I can do it, but I am investigating it.

To me, it's like the whole vinyl vs. digital debate. Yes of course digital is "superior in every way" on paper. But, I personally have not heard digital that sounds "better" than SOTA vinyl playback. It's personal tastes, it's different, any way you want to say it but I don't believe you can put up blanket terms that one is better than another.

With tubes, there is a liquidity that I just don't know if I can accept losing in a switch to SS. Now there is some SS which will give me just enough of that to keep me engaged but most SS of that caliber is very, very expensive.

I'm on a quest to see if it's worth it or not.

 

[Al M.]

Timely subject, as I have been contemplating changing from my beloved tubes to SS. I just don't know if I can do it, but I am investigating it.

To me, it's like the whole vinyl vs. digital debate. Yes of course digital is "superior in every way" on paper. But, I personally have not heard digital that sounds "better" than SOTA vinyl playback. It's personal tastes, it's different, any way you want to say it but I don't believe you can put up blanket terms that one is better than another.

With tubes, there is a liquidity that I just don't know if I can accept losing in a switch to SS. Now there is some SS which will give me just enough of that to keep me engaged but most SS of that caliber is very, very expensive.

I'm on a quest to see if it's worth it or not.

Class D has gotten to a point where it is worth exploring (I'm not kidding).

 

[DasguteOhr]

There are classic tube designs that also produce quite good readings and sound. No reason to switch to a transistor amp for me.


P.S
this power amplifier will never go into other hands again
In triode much lower thd.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Class D has gotten to a point where it is worth exploring (I'm not kidding).

Ralph says Class D can sound like toobs..

 

[Audiohertz2]

There are classic tube designs that also produce quite good readings and sound. No reason to switch to a transistor amp for me.View attachment 158465

View attachment 158466
P.S
this power amplifier will never go into other hands again
In triode much lower thd.

Need to see independent bench measurements before hand waving ..!

Most tube Specs given are never met ..

 

[Al M.]

Ralph says Class D can sound like toobs..

It can, more or less, I've heard it myself (not his amp).

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Ralph says Class D can sound like toobs..

My hybrid is classD with tube pre and yes sounds like my Toob integrated. Jeez.

 

[Audiohertz2]

It can, more or less, I've heard it myself (not his amp).

Never experienced that before , find them with good jump but lacking in body , odd Timbre, especially on Piano …

 

[Al M.]

Never experienced that before , find them with good jump but lacking in body , odd Timbre, especially on Piano …

Yes, that was a problem with some older class D, also a grey, grainy tone. But I have heard the PranaFidelity power amp at two show setups and in my own system, and was impressed. Body was comparable with my tube amp. Piano sounded great. Fully developed harmonics.

 

[tima]

Ralph says Class D can sound like toobs..

Several manufacturer's and customers claim their solid state amps have a tube-like sound. Maybe there are some but I don't recall tube manufacturer's saying their amps sound like solid state.

I had positive things to say about the Atma-Sphere Class D in my review. I went so far as to say that under a blind listening of the Class D I'm not sure I could say whether I was listening to a tube or solid state amp. I also have positive things to say about my Lamm tube amps. But I never confused one for the other. From generalized statements such as @Al M.'s "Piano sounded great. "Fully developed harmonics." it does not follow that Class D amps (or other solid-state) sound like tubes.

Rather than generic topology claims ("topology X sounds good" or topology X sounds like topology Y") I think it best to compare specific products side-by-side. It would be interesting to compare Atma-Sphere Class D to Atma-Sphere M-60 on same speakers and system, which in this case need to be relatively sensitive, say 8 ohm, 95db. I've heard both though not on the same system.

 

[Al M.]

Several manufacturer's and customers claim their solid state amps have a tube-like sound. Maybe there are some but I don't recall tube manufacturer's saying their amps sound like solid state.

I had positive things to say about the Atma-Sphere Class D in my review. I went so far as to say that under a blind listening of the Class D I'm not sure I could say whether I was listening to a tube or solid state amp. I also have positive things to say about my Lamm tube amps. But I never confused one for the other. From generalized statements such as @Al M.'s "Piano sounded great. "Fully developed harmonics." it does not follow that Class D amps (or other solid-state) sound like tubes.

Of course not, it will depend on specific cases. Also, I chose my words carefully and said, "it can, more or less, sound like tubes" (note both "can" and "more or less"). I did not go further to generalize or to equate one with the other.

And what you call a "generalized statement" of mine was in fact a specific statement about a specific product.

Rather than generic topology claims ("topology X sounds good" or topology X sounds like topology Y") I think it best to compare specific products side-by-side.

Agreed. Which is what I did.

You said:
I went so far as to say that under a blind listening of the Class D I'm not sure I could say whether I was listening to a tube or solid state amp."

Well, there you have it.

 

[tima]

Of course not, it will depend on specific cases. Also, I chose my words carefully and said, "it can, more or less, sound like tubes" (note both "can" and "more or less"). I did not go further to generalize or to equate one with the other.

And what you call a "generalized statement" of mine was in fact a specific statement about a specific product.



Agreed. Which is what I did.

You said:
I went so far as to say that under a blind listening of the Class D I'm not sure I could say whether I was listening to a tube or solid state amp."

Well, there you have it.

Not really about you Al, no need to defend yourself. I was talking about comparing topologies and the notion that solid state amps sound like tubes.

 

[Al M.]

Not really about you Al, no need to defend yourself. I was talking about comparing topologies and the notion that solid state amps sound like tubes.

Tim, it was you who made it about me by misreading my post, and by specifically mentioning me in your reply as saying something that I did not (making a "generalized statement").

Perhaps next time you can be more careful.

 

[Solartiger]

A friend of mine has a very good tube system. I am always amazed how immersive the sound is when I visit. Sweet and emotional. But after a while I find that too much and I want more neutrality, more grip and control. My Antileon Evos are SS Class A with just a little bit of negative feedback to make them sound a bit more warm. Old school Class A sound.

I prefer a tube amp driving electrostatic headphones, my Stax works this way and it plays on a very high level. I recently discovered how a tube in a DAC can help to lower the noise floor and add some analog qualities to the sound.

 

[microstrip]

Several manufacturer's and customers claim their solid state amps have a tube-like sound. Maybe there are some but I don't recall tube manufacturer's saying their amps sound like solid state.

They know it is not true ... Damping and frequency response limit bass performance in tube designs.

I had positive things to say about the Atma-Sphere Class D in my review. I went so far as to say that under a blind listening of the Class D I'm not sure I could say whether I was listening to a tube or solid state amp.

Probably you avoided some recordings that would show it easily, such as electronic music and used just vinyl. Does your system have ultra low bass response?

But yes, with many recordings friends to me the same about the VTL Siegfried II.

(...) Rather than generic topology claims ("topology X sounds good" or topology X sounds like topology Y") I think it best to compare specific products side-by-side.

Generic claims on topology are meaningless most of the time as they depend on matching between gear and we can always find exceptions - e.g. the 20 power tubes each Atmasphere MA2 will probably break much of our views on OTLs.

It would be interesting to compare Atma-Sphere Class D to Atma-Sphere M-60 on same speakers and system, which in this case need to be relatively sensitive, say 8 ohm, 95db. I've heard both though not on the same system.

Yes, this would be of interest, but I would prefer a comparison with the MA1's ...