I have become bored with tonal, common practice classical music

the sound of Tao

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I'm not super keen on the words 'atonal music' because they tell us so little. Schoenberg didn't care for it. But people are using this term, so okay.

Thinking about this some more made my own experience obvious to me.
I've never slipped into a limbic state listening to atonal music.
In music limbic activation is the great reward... big fan here!! Perhaps the music of the moderns was initially intended to jar not compliment living. I sometimes feel that simple responses don’t do justice to the spirit and intent of the times. We were at war or between wars. Repression was rife. The old ways were embedded parts of that repression. I wonder how it must have been to be Shostakovich... or Stravinsky, how brave to challenge everything known.
 

rando

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In this precise time, compositions by those emigrating to the US all but withered. Ernst Krenek, Hanns Eisler, and quite possibly their betters were reduced to compositional non-entities. At least in the first case, acceptance critical to advancement in the old world existed.

On Alma Mahler pressing Krenek to finish her late husband's 10th symphony while married to her daughter.
It would have required the brazen temerity of an unspeakable barbarian to dare attempting an orchestration of these violent scribblings of a dying genius.
 

NorthStar

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Higher level of tonal expression in classical music recordings; where do we look for those and find then with a sure dose? In the classical music forum section? In the professional music recording magazines. @ the record music stores? In the last pages of audio mags? In the best classical music world forums? In the best online music site reviews?

What's the best tone, best Classical record labels?
What's the best new classic music trends?

That's why I wanted to know few examples from the OP.
There's a sea of classical music performances to be discovered...it would take couple billion lifetimes ... minimum.
 

Simon Moon

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Simon I’d guess the answers in a large way lays in what it is about contemporary classical atonal music (AM) that is becoming a need for you. What it feeds you. The kinds of sensations and states that it takes you to.

More traditional and romantic classical tonal music (TN) is much more often researched when looking to the ways music is processed and the way the experience of it changes us. Exploration into AM and impacts on experience aren’t anywhere near as much studied.

Some of the ideas I’ve come across in the past look to the values of the new atonal music also having value as a novel experience that energetically charges and blasts away at old patterns.

The dissonance is also in cognitive terms experienced as an arousal. It’s lack of resolve creates a different cognitive relationship for us. Some find it exciting, others exhausting, some enjoy the sense of required cognitive mastering of a more conscious grasp on the background on the concept and its story and the underlying idea. To understand it more often requires specific knowledge of the spirit of the times and the lives of the composer and their individual conceptual approach in these newly (de)constructed compositional systems.

For others AM is not accessible itself and can’t be interpreted or extracted in the experience of listening alone as it abstracts rather than more direct telling through narrative or painting a more familiar scene. By AM turning its back on the familiar in an effort of framing new musical language with original forms and intent (so as to create and discover new ways of communicating) it’s underbelly is that when you talk a new language not too many will always be able to understand or connect (or at least connect deeply).

For me in many ways AM is just as much about idea as it is about content. It’s as much about knowing through an understanding and less about just knowing through feeling. Listening to AM I suggest is as every bit an individual an experience as is composing it. The listening reflects the self discovering nature of the concept. In some ways it is as isolating as being born into a new universe created at every turn. It is chaos theory. As comfortable as being ejected off a train without a map or the security of anything known in a country that has an unfamiliar and sensationally charged energetic language. After you get back on the train you may well be unsure what you have just experienced, it may not give you meaning but it definitely gave you experience.

Perhaps more traditional tonal forms of classical music may well simply lead more to shared experiences that recall points and moments and reflect more traditional cycles whereas AM does tend to be more caught in it’s invention and ideas.

From my experiences AM tends to lean to more constant and unexpected stimulation and TM to a cycle of feelings that are more completed as a digestive whole.

It’s a different form of nourishment and sensation. The shock of the new can be compelling but as in everything else in life it must lead somewhere. There is retention, experience and expectation. These temporal juxtapositions expect that things will change.

I hope you get from it what you need and that this is a good state for you though perhaps being locked in any one state of musical experience might ultimately not be ideally sustainable and lead to some loss of sense of the whole. Reason and purpose aren’t exactly the same things. Meaning gives a whole substance that allows for another layer of appreciation. If the meaning has to be consciously or actively discovered to be appreciated it suggests to me an early language rather than a mature one. This newness of the modernists was a cultural revolution and along with the reactionary post moderns a part of an establishing new (young) phase. Nothing stays locked in time. This may be completely appropriate to where you are currently at. Just trust in the way of it and enjoy it all I figure.


Thank you for the thoughtful reply!

I have read it rather quickly, so I have not taken it all in yet. But I will give it proper due later.
 

Simon Moon

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I'm not super keen on the words 'atonal music' because they tell us so little. Schoenberg didn't care for it. But people are using this term, so okay.

Yes, when I posted the OP, I was not happy using the term 'atonal', but it seems like the best term to use for the types of music I am referring to. At least, the vast majority of classical music fans understand what types of music are being referred to.

Thinking about this some more made my own experience obvious to me.
I've never slipped into a limbic state listening to atonal music.

I actually have slipped into a limbic state while listening to atonal classical music.

For me, beauty in music does not have to be obvious. There are deeper levels of beauty that I find in atonal music, kind of beneath the 'ugliness'*. It just takes a bit of effort to unravel.

Also, with some of the more difficult pieces, there is a deeply satisfying sense of catharsis that I experience while listening. I also achieve a cathartic deeply emotional connection with other, tonal music I listen to (prog, jazz, fusion), but that is also different sort of experience.

And lastly, I listen to music for many different reasons. I don't always require a deep emotional connection to music to enjoy the hell out of it. So, depending on my mood, limbic experiences are not always the goal.

*I am using the term 'ugliness' to refer to how many non-fans describe atonal music, not how I describe it.
 

Al M.

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Simon I’d guess the answers in a large way lays in what it is about contemporary classical atonal music (AM) that is becoming a need for you. What it feeds you. The kinds of sensations and states that it takes you to.

More traditional and romantic classical tonal music (TN) is much more often researched when looking to the ways music is processed and the way the experience of it changes us. Exploration into AM and impacts on experience aren’t anywhere near as much studied.

Some of the ideas I’ve come across in the past look to the values of the new atonal music also having value as a novel experience that energetically charges and blasts away at old patterns.

The dissonance is also in cognitive terms experienced as an arousal. It’s lack of resolve creates a different cognitive relationship for us. Some find it exciting, others exhausting, some enjoy the sense of required cognitive mastering of a more conscious grasp on the background on the concept and its story and the underlying idea. To understand it more often requires specific knowledge of the spirit of the times and the lives of the composer and their individual conceptual approach in these newly (de)constructed compositional systems.

For others AM is not accessible itself and can’t be interpreted or extracted in the experience of listening alone as it abstracts rather than more direct telling through narrative or painting a more familiar scene. By AM turning its back on the familiar in an effort of framing new musical language with original forms and intent (so as to create and discover new ways of communicating) it’s underbelly is that when you talk a new language not too many will always be able to understand or connect (or at least connect deeply).

For me in many ways AM is just as much about idea as it is about content. It’s as much about knowing through an understanding and less about just knowing through feeling. Listening to AM I suggest is as every bit an individual an experience as is composing it. The listening reflects the self discovering nature of the concept. In some ways it is as isolating as being born into a new universe created at every turn. It is chaos theory. As comfortable as being ejected off a train without a map or the security of anything known in a country that has an unfamiliar and sensationally charged energetic language. After you get back on the train you may well be unsure what you have just experienced, it may not give you meaning but it definitely gave you experience.

Perhaps more traditional tonal forms of classical music may well simply lead more to shared experiences that recall points and moments and reflect more traditional cycles whereas AM does tend to be more caught in it’s invention and ideas.

From my experiences AM tends to lean to more constant and unexpected stimulation and TM to a cycle of feelings that are more completed as a digestive whole.

It’s a different form of nourishment and sensation. The shock of the new can be compelling but as in everything else in life it must lead somewhere. There is retention, experience and expectation. These temporal juxtapositions expect that things will change.

I hope you get from it what you need and that this is a good state for you though perhaps being locked in any one state of musical experience might ultimately not be ideally sustainable and lead to some loss of sense of the whole. Reason and purpose aren’t exactly the same things. Meaning gives a whole substance that allows for another layer of appreciation. If the meaning has to be consciously or actively discovered to be appreciated it suggests to me an early language rather than a mature one. This newness of the modernists was a cultural revolution and along with the reactionary post moderns a part of an establishing new (young) phase. Nothing stays locked in time. This may be completely appropriate to where you are currently at. Just trust in the way of it and enjoy it all I figure.

Again, thank you for this thought-provoking post.

(To adopt your acronyms, TM = tonal music, AM = atonal music)

To me music is rarely about external "meaning", it is about the music itself, the musical narrative, grounded in themes/melodies or motives/gestures/sounds. When a composer like Mahler, in the "post"-romanticism of his later symphonies, clearly injects detailed meaning from passage to passage by playing with romantic sign posts and at times deconstructing them in trivialism or even mockery, or in an unexpected turn towards darker or threatening moods, I experience this as a fascinated observer, rather than as someone drawn into the emotion myself (even though at times this also happens).

Therefore, I don't see how in general TM is supposed to have more meaning than AM. The primary meaning of music is its structure (how it organizes time), and its *musical* narrative.

I don't experience a lack of resolve in AM. Resolution of dissonance is a pre-20th century concept that simply does not apply to AM. It does this music a disservice to hear it as "unresolved", it is emphatically an autonomous language of its own. Approaching art, or any human body of work, with wrong expectations does it a disservice.

I think in the end it is less about tonal vs. atonal, but about searching vs. affirmative music, or music that always returns to a common ground or starting point. All aspiring classical music (which is not just a "ditty"), when it is well written, is to some extent "searching", since it always looks for the next, surprising variation and phase of development. I hear that searching also in Tchaikovsky's violin concerto, even though it is affirmative also in its constant forward sweep, which is found especially in the first and third movement, but also to some extent in the slow middle movement. Yet some music makes the search its destination. There is little familiarity of returning to structures or moments that had been heard before. AM is often like that, but it does not have to be like that at all. For example, Stockhausen's Kathinkas Gesang (Kathinka's Chant) for flute and accompaniment circles, with constant variation, around the same phrases over and over again, in a purposefully ritualistic manner. I like both, searching and affirmative music; others will feel more comfortable with just the latter. One is not better than the other. Both types of music, when well composed, provide for me, to quote you, "constant and unexpected stimulation".

For me in many ways AM is just as much about idea as it is about content. It’s as much about knowing through an understanding and less about just knowing through feeling.

I think therein lies part of the solution of the puzzle. I always enjoy knowing music through understanding, and not just through feeling, and that is also a reason why both TM and AM have a similar attraction to me.
 
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the sound of Tao

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Thanks Al and Simon,
Am very much enjoying your thoughts on this, poking the consciousness with ideas is such a great way to realise and much loving the notion of the music searching Al.

Will digest these. Though Al please don’t go laying those acronyms TM and AM too heavily at my doorstep lol, I was just taking some previously observed shortcuts in the name of one finger typing on a phone but honestly outside of the thread I’m unlikely to ever use these either as it tends to make for a limited and uncomfortably black and white box to be then sorting something as marvellous as classical music into that division.

I still feel that the music you are drawn to at any time is reflective of your current needs and the states or phases we are in or travelling through be they physical, emotional, intellectual or spiritual. So understanding what is being triggered by music is also a great way to better know thyself so maybe music isn’t the only thing doing some searching. Though I have settled in with my system and am also at peace with a broad palette of great music as well. Streaming for me has been key to a transformational phase of appreciation of the new music as well as the old so the music search has been more recently full of discovery than ever.
 
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tima

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I don't experience a lack of resolve in AM. Resolution of dissonance is a pre-20th century concept that simply does not apply to AM. It does this music a disservice to hear it as "unresolved", it is emphatically an autonomous language of its own. Approaching art, or any human body of work, with wrong expectations does it a disservice.

I think in the end it is less about tonal vs. atonal, but about searching vs. affirmative music, or music that always returns to a common ground or starting point.

Of course within itself atonal music does not resolve. I expect no resolution. Yet I live in a context of 300-400+ preceding years of music where that expectation is set. Whether it is coming from that context or whether it is something predisposed I doubt we can know, but I'm not ruling out either. I understand you do for yourself, Al and that's fine. While atonal has appeal, presumably most who enjoy it recognize it is not for everyone. It's fair to ask why not. Because you can't dance to it? (j/k)

I'm not enough of a musicologist to know if it is unusual or difficult to create resolve within the 'rules' of 12 tone technique (to pick a structural subset within the atonal) - perhaps it is impossible by definition. Much is made of disonance and use of the diatonic scale as part of the definition, it typically is a hallmark. But it is the absence of the tonal center to which a piece or section can return or resolve that breaks the expectation of many. There is a strong need to breathe out but it is not universal. Simon turns to the fantastical because he is bored. After centuries perhaps Schoenberg got bored too. (One could be surprised it took so long.) Some may be comfortable living in the land of no return for a long time. Some come back. Some slip freely back and forth. It's all good.
 
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the sound of Tao

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The geometry of a thing tells you a lot about the thing. A square is still with tension, a circle moves periodically but incessantly, a rectangle has a movement and growth that directs and feeds us in the way of its longer side, a line leads us most directly and triangles just thrust us in their way. So where does the geometry of tonal music lead us... always back to the centre, the triadic chord is centre weighted with a certainty of the middle path... it has a kind of balance that can bring a centred peace of mind. Atonality is by its geometry a fabulous pure uncertainty, much more like a fractal, energetically charged with complexity and a wild unpredictability. For some it is noise because they perhaps can’t be at ease with its demands to follow and be experienced but not predicted.

Sensations are addictive. The dopamine we are fed is based on the previous rewards to feelings generated by former positive experiences. The limbic provides a reaffirming biofeedback that only gives way when the phase is exhausted. So in this we are not so complex. Simple chemical rewards are largely what keep us on track.

I am perhaps the least conscious person imaginable, for me everything is feeling and everything is meaning. Ideas come out of feelings, actions are born of feelings, ideas are the conscious momentary capture of an awareness born from feelings. Music expresses feelings and is a language of feeling. It reminds me constantly what we feel of ourselves and what is in our nature.

We are really just continuous moving water and lifting light. Fire and water. Energy and fluids. Sensation and feeling. The light of awareness clings to our inner darkness for the fuel of the feelings. Consciousness like everything in existence is seeking a leaving and a return. At the start of life there is only the fire of chaos, at the end of time, peace and repose as we dissolve back into the fluid of a sea of feelings. Everything expresses this time and cycle. Tonality centres and expresses in sound the great cycle of the leaving and the returning, the breathing in, the breathing out. The stillness is a transitional void in between the inner and outer wheels. Music is the sound that life makes because life is in it’s essence seeking the tonic of life and harmony. Everything resolves eventually. (Resistance is futile says the musical borg dude). Btw Started tonight listening to Thomas Ades, then Samuel Barber, then Brahms piano trio and now Ravel’s Tzigane. All good.
 
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