How fussy are current classical recording engineers?

[Bruce B]

Back to recording quality, my best bet are:
Pentatone, Channel Classics and BIS.
BIS if I had to choose only one.

We've ripped the entire BIS label and I'd say only about 60-70% could be called Good to VG.

 

[fas42]

So, Bruce, what would your reply be to the precise question I phrased initially: are recording engineers for classical material less careful now than they were, say, 30, 40 years ago?

Frank

 

[Manelus]

May be I'm biased, sure I have not listened to all BIS recordings, but all the ones I have purchased at eClassical, most 24bit 44.1kHz and a few 24bit 88.2kHz are native PCM masters and they sound great.
Maybe they put there just the real good ones and the rest are not so good.
I have downloaded around 100 of them.

 

[Bruce B]

So, Bruce, what would your reply be to the precise question I phrased initially: are recording engineers for classical material less careful now than they were, say, 30, 40 years ago?

Frank

I feel they are. I've seen so many engineers so meticulous as not to even have a twist in a cable or at least have 2-3 layers of redundancy. I don't see that today. With shrinking budgets, limited time and a society that wants things yesterday, it's a dying art.

 

[fas42]

I feel they are. I've seen so many engineers so meticulous as not to even have a twist in a cable or at least have 2-3 layers of redundancy. I don't see that today. With shrinking budgets, limited time and a society that wants things yesterday, it's a dying art.

Yes, that was my gut feeling: thank god we have this vast treasury of exceptional recordings done over the previous decades, which will be shown in better and better light as people's playback systems improve still further ...

Frank

 

[mep]

Mark, when was the last time you listened up close to acoustic music?

Very recently.

That's exactly how your ear/brain works when dealing with live sound, not PA pulp: if someone is playing a real saxophone you can hear him clear as a bell from the other end of the house, and the player hasn't got a 1,000W air pressure pump in his mouth. You can then walk up to him and stick your ear a few inches away from the body of the instrument, and will be aware of a very intense sound pressure which pulses through your head, completely overwhelming all other noise.

No kidding? You mean if I stuck my ear at the bell end of a saxophone being blown I might be aware of an intense sound pressure? That’s quite a revelation Frank.

If I were to spin you around a couple of times in that same position so you didn't know which way you were facing, I think you would have great difficulty pointing accurately to where the instrument was.

If you spin someone around enough they will get dizzy and fall on their ass.

And no nonsense about loudspeakers and music instruments being different things.

Say what?? A loudspeaker is the same as a musical instrument? A piano creates sound waves the same way a speaker does?

Sound waves are sound waves, once they leave whatever has produced them the air has no knowledge of what produced that disturbance of itself, so neither should your ears ...It's as simple as that. Frank

No it’s not. A piano is going to produce a different pressure wave in the air than a speaker does. Ditto for any instrument-let alone a symphony orchestra.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I feel they are. I've seen so many engineers so meticulous as not to even have a twist in a cable or at least have 2-3 layers of redundancy. I don't see that today. With shrinking budgets, limited time and a society that wants things yesterday, it's a dying art.

Probably the biggest ticket item is the cost of the orchestra-due to union wage scales. So it's get it on disc, bar by bar and edit and fix the recording later rather than getting it right to start with. Plus it's rare for an orchestra nowadays to play and entire movement through Reiner would have never allowed his orchestra to be dissected and reassembled.

 

[MylesBAstor]

May be I'm biased, sure I have not listened to all BIS recordings, but all the ones I have purchased at eClassical, most 24bit 44.1kHz and a few 24bit 88.2kHz are native PCM masters and they sound great.
Maybe they put there just the real good ones and the rest are not so good.
I have downloaded around 100 of them.

Bis at least in their analog days, were always a bit edgy and thin to my ears. Even the Paniagua La Spagna on HP's list.

 

[NorthStar]

Back to recording quality, my best bet are:
Pentatone, Channel Classics and BIS.
BIS if I had to choose only one.

BIS, do they make SACDs?

 

[fas42]

No it’s not. A piano is going to produce a different pressure wave in the air than a speaker does. Ditto for any instrument-let alone a symphony orchestra.

Interesting, I've just discovered a new fact about the physics of sound: that the movement of paper, a form of wood, is intrinsically incapable of creating a pressure wave the same as made by the movement of wood, say in a musical instrument -- you learn something new every day ...

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

Mark, when was the last time you listened up close to acoustic music? That's exactly how your ear/brain works when dealing with live sound, not PA pulp: if someone is playing a real saxophone you can hear him clear as a bell from the other end of the house, and the player hasn't got a 1,000W air pressure pump in his mouth. You can then walk up to him and stick your ear a few inches away from the body of the instrument, and will be aware of a very intense sound pressure which pulses through your head, completely overwhelming all other noise. If I were to spin you around a couple of times in that same position so you didn't know which way you were facing, I think you would have great difficulty pointing accurately to where the instrument was.

So that's how the ear/brain works with the real thing. So the point of an audio setup is to replicate that experience. And no nonsense about loudspeakers and music instruments being different things. Sound waves are sound waves, once they leave whatever has produced them the air has no knowledge of what produced that disturbance of itself, so neither should your ears ...

It's as simple as that.

Frank

I just loved reading that entire post!

 

[Manelus]

BIS, do they made SACDs?

Yes, they make SACDs, but masters are PCM, so SACDs are PCM to DSD conversions. Red layer is native PCM.
So the best quality you can get is probably 24bit downloads.

 

[mep]

Interesting, I've just discovered a new fact about the physics of sound: that the movement of paper, a form of wood, is intrinsically incapable of creating a pressure wave the same as made by the movement of wood, say in a musical instrument -- you learn something new every day ...

Frank

They both create pressure waves Frank. They just don’t create the same pressure waves. Think about it Frank. It’s impossible they both disturb the air in the same way.

 

[Manelus]

Bis at least in their analog days, were always a bit edgy and thin to my ears. Even the Paniagua La Spagna on HP's list.

I concur, that is how I remember BIS sound in analogue days. Probably that's why I'm impressed with current recordings.

 

[NorthStar]

May be I'm biased, sure I have not listened to all BIS recordings, but all the ones I have purchased at eClassical, most 24bit 44.1kHz and a few 24bit 88.2kHz are native PCM masters and they sound great.
Maybe they put there just the real good ones and the rest are not so good.
I have downloaded around 100 of them.

I have several BIS CD recordings (Classical, Orchestral, Opera, Choral music...),
and some sound quite nice, and others don't.

 

[fas42]

They both create pressure waves Frank. They just don’t create the same pressure waves. Think about it Frank. It’s impossible they both disturb the air in the same way.

But IF the pressure wave is different then that is distortion. By definition. We're aiming with our systems to minimise such, and good quality speaker transducers can get down to 60dB below in their working range. The same as high quality tube amps, and as a side note very similar to what that Atlas amp was pumping into the Vandersteens. But that still sounded magical to you and others there. So in what way didn't it sound "real"?

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

Yes, they make SACDs, but masters are PCM, so SACDs are PCM to DSD conversions. Red layer is native PCM.
So the best quality you can get is probably 24bit downloads.

Sorry for my typo ("made", instead of "make"; I fixed it).

Ah I see; I believe it is better to use digital DSD recording machines, all the way from all input stages, right?

By the way, all my Music is on LPs, CDs (including the HDCD encoded ones), SACDs, DVD Audios, DVDs, Blu-rays, HD DVDs, and I'd rather forget about the rest of the other audio formats (except for DAT & Open-Reels).

Bob (me) does not download anything from anywhere (Music or Movies).
It's just the way it is. At least in my entire past, and right now.
And no problem whatsover with it either from the people that do.
* I guess I'm just still old-fashioned type of guy.

Gold CDs, 24-bit recordings, Upsampling (up to 352kHz or even 704kHz),
aren't in my Christmas tree top ornamentation (Nazareth star).

I do like 88.2 and 176.4kHz on some recordings (96 and 192kHz I guess is fine too; actually is).
And in my book, 20-bit is all is truly needed (I agree with Bob Stuart, from Meridian).

Standard Red Book CDs (16-bit/44.1kHz), can sound wondeful if well done.

 

[fas42]

Now, more complex stuff, such as a piano, etc, gets harder IMO, but still very very difficult to tell.

Now, you're going to hate me, Tom, but I'm doing to drag back a variation on a thought experiment I posed to you some time ago: a soundproof wall, big Steinway on the other side. Cut a hole in the wall to perfectly match the shape of a highly ranked panel speaker, with a soundproof door that can be shut. You, on the other side from the piano, say 10 feet away from the door are blindfolded and now we'll run some AB's.

A: Top notch pianist pounds away, you listen through open doorway
B: Same pianist in action, soundproof door closed, mic set up on other side of doorway, feeding through to optimised amp driving the panel speaker which has been shifted to the postion of the door, in ideal spacing, etc.

Would you say that under all circumstances it would always be obvious whether you were listening to the original, A, sound or the relayed, B, sound, and that it would be theoretically impossible to get an extremely close match?

Frank

 

[RBFC]

Let's please stick to the subject of classical recording and engineering. Rehashing old debates about the playback end of the chain is not on the topic of the recording end.

Thanks,

Lee

 

[NorthStar]

Frank, no one can say fo sur unless they experiment in real space, and do the comparing, right?

EDIT: Sorry Lee, I just saw your post after mine was still in progress.