How do you get rid of multiple viruses?

[vinylphilemag]

Actually, none of this is exactly true. The earlier, 16 bit consumer versions of Windows - Windows 3, Win 95, Win 98, Win ME - were based on DOS. But all 32 bit and 64 bit versions of Windows - NT, 2000, XP, Vista, and Windows 7 - are based on a modern multi-tasking kernel that is not inherently any more or less secure than various Unix kernels.

I was keeping my reply deliberately simple; I'm an old UNIX hand myself.

Although I have no experience with more recent versions of Windows, I'd like to see some evidence of the claim the Windows' security is on par with UNIX's. For example, does the Wnndows file system support the concept of different users? That is, does each file on the system have associated with it an ID that is unique to each user, and are the permissions settable such that unprivileged users can't read/write other users' files? AFAIK, neither FAT nor NTFS do.

Security experts all seem to rank Firefox as the most secure browser, FWIW. If you've got Macs in the house frequently used by less cautious or computer-savvy users, switching to Firefox as the primary browser is probably not a bad idea.

I don't doubt that; I've been using Firefox (and prior to that, Mozilla) for many years.

 

[vinylphilemag]

^ Cool!

* Wish they could make it only one finger though! ...Just a one-touch 'quickie' click!

That'd be the reset button!

 

[Scott Borduin]

Although I have no experience with more recent versions of Windows, I'd like to see some evidence of the claim the Windows' security is on par with UNIX's. For example, does the Wnndows file system support the concept of different users? That is, does each file on the system have associated with it an ID that is unique to each user, and are the permissions settable such that unprivileged users can't read/write other users' files? AFAIK, neither FAT nor NTFS do.

Well, I'm no security guru. But Windows does provide the ability to secure files, folders, and processes against modification by less privileged users; the problem is, in the consumer space every user (regardless of Mac,Windows,Ubuntu,Linux) is effectively their own system administrator, and almost always has access to elevated privileges, often without even being aware (hence the introduction of those helpful/annoying security popups in Vista and Win 7).

Some interesting links on the question of Mac/Windows security:

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/hack-windows-security-snow-leopard,8704.html

http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-10444561-245.html

http://www.thetechherald.com/articl...s-care-little-about-the-Mac-vs-Windows-debate

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/mac-versus-windows-vulnerability-stats-for-2007/758

The cnet article interviews a whole bunch of people in the security field, and is a good read. The 2007 link is obviously dated, but the raw data there kind of puts the lie to the idea that OSx was fundamentally better by design. And the one about criminals not caring is perhaps the most important one: as Amir keeps saying, the biggest problem these days isn't really the security issues in the OS per se, its the software that people unwittingly install that accomplishes illegitimate ends through perfectly legitimate use of operating system resources - Malware.

 

[Steve Williams]

Scott, thanks for those links. Good reads

 

[vinylphilemag]

Well, I'm no security guru. But Windows does provide the ability to secure files, folders, and processes against modification by less privileged users; the problem is, in the consumer space every user (regardless of Mac,Windows,Ubuntu,Linux) is effectively their own system administrator, and almost always has access to elevated privileges, often without even being aware (hence the introduction of those helpful/annoying security popups in Vista and Win 7).

That's true, but people running (even unknowingly) as a user with elevated privs vs an unprivileged user is a different problem to core OS security. Any one who has admin privs can wreck havoc on their machine, regardless of the OS.

The real problems start when unprivileged users can mess with other users stuff, or worse, system files. I could be wrong, but I don't think Windows has addressed that issue.

Also, too many people are confusing security issues with app vs security issue with the OS per se. Also, attacks like phishing don't even belong in this type of discussion because that's a social problem rather than a technical one.

 

[NorthStar]

That'd be the reset button!

Rich, which one is it on your keyboard???

 

[NorthStar]

Well, I'm no security guru. But Windows does provide the ability to secure files, folders, and processes against modification by less privileged users; the problem is, in the consumer space every user (regardless of Mac,Windows,Ubuntu,Linux) is effectively their own system administrator, and almost always has access to elevated privileges, often without even being aware (hence the introduction of those helpful/annoying security popups in Vista and Win 7).

Some interesting links on the question of Mac/Windows security:

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/hack-windows-security-snow-leopard,8704.html

http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-10444561-245.html

http://www.thetechherald.com/articl...s-care-little-about-the-Mac-vs-Windows-debate

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/mac-versus-windows-vulnerability-stats-for-2007/758

The cnet article interviews a whole bunch of people in the security field, and is a good read. The 2007 link is obviously dated, but the raw data there kind of puts the lie to the idea that OSx was fundamentally better by design. And the one about criminals not caring is perhaps the most important one: as Amir keeps saying, the biggest problem these days isn't really the security issues in the OS per se, its the software that people unwittingly install that accomplishes illegitimate ends through perfectly legitimate use of operating system resources - Malware.

Great post Scott, thank you for those links too!

 

[Scott Borduin]

Any one who has admin privs can wreck havoc on their machine, regardless of the OS.

Well, yes, this is part of my point: almost all consumer users of personal computers have admin privileges or the practical equivalent. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to install software or install updates and patches. I seems to me you're looking at this more from the perspective of a IT administrator. If you're a control freak, and your kids are more obedient than mine you might be able to try to enforce a policy where all changes to the "system" have to be approved by Dad. Good luck with that. And don't even bring up the subject of my Mom and her laptop 1500 miles away from me. But in the end, it won't make much difference, since much of the interesting data about a person will be accessible with simple user privileges anyway.

The real problems start when unprivileged users can mess with other users stuff, or worse, system files. I could be wrong, but I don't think Windows has addressed that issue.

Actually, user privileges in Windows do not allow access to other user's data. But as I point out above, that is pretty much irrelevant as it relates to common security risks.

Also, too many people are confusing security issues with app vs security issue with the OS per se. Also, attacks like phishing don't even belong in this type of discussion because that's a social problem rather than a technical one.

Well, I think I understand the distinction you're trying to make, but I also think its a distinction without difference for the majority of computer users. This thread as it started possibly relates to the entire spectrum of potential security risks. Who knows what happened to LordoftheRingsEE? Was it a virus, Trojan, spyware, phishing attack? And really, why would he/she care what the category is? No combination of operating system and anti-virus/malware can absolutely prevent you from choosing a "fatal mistake", or even help you identify the possibility. So it comes down to an very experienced and intuitive sense of what to do, and what not to do, as a user. And there aren't many resources dedicated to educating those users who need it most, like my Mom. Or my 14 year old son.

 

[amirm]

I was keeping my reply deliberately simple; I'm an old UNIX hand myself.

Although I have no experience with more recent versions of Windows, I'd like to see some evidence of the claim the Windows' security is on par with UNIX's. For example, does the Wnndows file system support the concept of different users?

Of course. NTFS came years after Unix file systems and in that regard, it is quite sophisticated. ACLs govern permission chains. You can read about it here: http://www.ntfs.com/ntfs-permissions.htm. As you see, there is a lot to it. So much so that if you don't know what you are doing, you can easily get yourself into a tangled mess .

 

[NorthStar]

Scott, name's Bob.

And it was a combination of Viruses and Trojans that I got at the same time (about two dozens of them)!!!

And only by clicking on a Birthday Card! ...And that happened trice! And three times within only one week!
And those Birthday cards were from the Musical theme type. ...You know, with designs representing musical notes, musical instruments and all that Jazz...
{I can even retraced at least two of them if not the entire three cards; my memory is excellent.}

I had viruses and trojans in the past, but never that many in one single click! Those 'musical' birthday cards are worse than Viagra!
...Well, you know what I mean...

I'm a Microsoft Windows XP and Internet Explorer user.

Bob

O.S. Operating System.

S.O.S. Message in a bottle - Sting

 

[vinylphilemag]

I'm a Microsoft Windows XP and Internet Explorer user.

Changing your OS ain't easy, but you really should ditch Internet Exploder. Download Firefox--it'll import all your bookmarks and stuff from IE, easing the transition.

 

[vinylphilemag]

Of course. NTFS came years after Unix file systems and in that regard, it is quite sophisticated. ACLs govern permission chains. You can read about it here: http://www.ntfs.com/ntfs-permissions.htm. As you see, there is a lot to it. So much so that if you don't know what you are doing, you can easily get yourself into a tangled mess .

Right, I forgot NTFS had ACLs (most UNIX filesystems have 'em too); thanks for the reminder.

 

[NorthStar]

Changing your OS ain't easy, but you really should ditch Internet Exploder. Download Firefox--it'll import all your bookmarks and stuff from IE, easing the transition.

Rich, I'm too deep and without the knowledge to do these things on my own.

* I used Windows 98 exactly two years ago, and within only few weeks I tried to download Windows 2000; and that's how I got the "Blue Screen" of death! ...First time ever with a computer, and all on my own!
Only the 'Disc' (Windows 2000) was provided to me by a computer guru.
But I didn't know that my older computer running a Pentium III processor was not up to the task at hand!
I just let it go, and bought a computer, because that older one was free.
{I still have it, and I've been told that a computer expert can bring it back to life with Windows 98.}

I always go forward in life and try to learn things on my own, and I'm not afraid to click ANYWHERE I feel like it!
Best way to learn!

Amir might have 35 years experience with computers, and me only two; but I've seen more Viruses and Trojans in just those two years than he did in all his 35 years!
Good? Bad? Neither; such is life for different people, different users, different 'mythologies', pursuits...

 

[Scott Borduin]

Scott, name's Bob.

And it was a combination of Viruses and Trojans that I got at the same time (about two dozens of them)!!!

And only by clicking on a Birthday Card! ...And that happened trice!

....

Good to meet you Bob! And I almost certainly would have clicked on that birthday card myself. The worst criminals and the worst politicians have at least one thing in common: they take advantage of our best instincts to get us to do the worst thing for ourselves. Best of luck getting your system fixed; fortunately, in my experience, the best geeks in white hats are usually the equal of those in black hats.

Scott

 

[Old Listener]

ScottB and Bob

Well, yes, this is part of my point: almost all consumer users of personal computers have admin privileges or the practical equivalent.
...
But in the end, it won't make much difference, since much of the interesting data about a person will be accessible with simple user privileges anyway.
...

Actually, user privileges in Windows do not allow access to other user's data. But as I point out above, that is pretty much irrelevant as it relates to common security risks.

...
Well, I think I understand the distinction you're trying to make, but I also think its a distinction without difference for the majority of computer users. This thread as it started possibly relates to the entire spectrum of potential security risks.

Thanks for making these points, ScottB. I was thinking of most of the same points.

Bob, do you have a backup of your files from before you had the first malware attack?

<Bob> Amir might have 35 years experience with computers, and me only two; but I've seen more
> Viruses and Trojans in just those two years than he did in all his 35 years!

Bob, here is another way of looking at it. Amir has avoided more viruses in 35 years than you have had. Some experiences you should avoid having.

Bill

 

[DaveyF]

Malware is of course what infected my Pc. The interesting thing about this software was that it was installed if one clicked anywhere on the screen...Not just on the open window, But ANY CLICK AT ALL ANYWHERE ON THE SCREEN!
The only solution at the time was to hit control, alt ,delete and halt the program...Now think of this.....

My IT friend says he can write code that will install malware as soon as you hit Control, Alt, Delete... Or for that matter any click at all!!

Are we getting the picture now? IMHO, you Pc users have been VERY lucky that there seemingly aren't too many people that seem to have this skill level....YET
No, Mac's aren't immune, but so far they seem to be of less interest to those who are writing this malware.

 

[NorthStar]

Lol Bill, I'm perhaps just more adventurous than a prudent Amir!

But his experience is certainly a major assett.

______________________

* No, I don't have any backups whatsoever! With me it's all or nothing!
I'm willing to lost it all in order to gain it all!

Bob

On this planet you try your best with what you have and don't have;
then you proceed to the next without looking back.
It ain't what you saved that counts, but what you gained from learning during the process. - Bob

 

[Old Listener]

learning

* No, I don't have any backups whatsoever! With me it's all or nothing!
I'm willing to lost it all in order to gain it all!

You are on a fast track to learn some stuff about using a computer.

$ 110 (US) + tax buys a Western Digital 2 TeraByte USB backup drive from newegg.com. $ 70 for a 1 TB drive. After you lose important data, investing in backup hardware and software may look a bit more attractive than it did earlier.

> It ain't what you saved that counts, but what you gained from learning during the process.

What have you learned from this experience?

Bill

 

[NorthStar]

& Teaching...

You are on a fast track to learn some stuff about using a computer.

$ 110 (US) + tax buys a Western Digital 2 TeraByte USB backup drive from newegg.com. $ 70 for a 1 TB drive. After you lose important data, investing in backup hardware and software may look a bit more attractive than it did earlier.

> It ain't what you saved that counts, but what you gained from learning during the process.

What have you learned from this experience?

Bill

That it is good to listen to good advice from friends in the know like yourself!
Like I said; you don't look back but try to reach in the 'now', in the 'here'.
{I will get a USB backup drive with plenty of memory.}

Bob

* Our brains are a better and quicker source of memory.
It comes handier and faster than a machine! - Me, Bob

Bo Bo Bob lol

 

[RBFC]

Would restarting the computer work without using any clicks or key strokes?

Lee