Help Refine this system, please!

[audiopie]

Please look at my signature with the list of components currently in our system. I love each and every item, but I haven't achieved a state of synergy where I'm happy with the results. Part of the problem is the room, I know that and can't do anything about it right now, but will in the future. Despite the room issues, the speakers have been "Master Set".

I think that if I had to start over and could keep only one piece, it would likely be the Taiko. Everything else is "replaceable", I don't know of anything that can match the Taiko.
However, I think that where my system is lacking is in the synergy between the amps and the speakers. Both are really great products, but I think that the speakers would work better with more powerful amps, and the amps would work better with more sensitive speakers (currently about 86db). So that begs the questions, which one should go and what should replace it?
My tastes lean toward wanting...well, wanting it all. I want detail, clarity, huge soundstage, extreme separation of instruments with each existing in it's own space, but most of all, I want rich tonal color. Not falsely colored, but I want to hear the wood of the acoustic guitar, the double bass, the violin etc. I want to hear the sound of the wood in the piano, the depth of vocal quality of the singer and the air and space of the venue. This means that tubes need to be a major component. Is this asking too much? (probably).
Suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[the sound of Tao]

However, I think that where my system is lacking is in the synergy between the amps and the speakers. Both are really great products, but I think that the speakers would work better with more powerful amps, and the amps would work better with more sensitive speakers (currently about 86db). So that begs the questions, which one should go and what should replace it?
My tastes lean toward wanting...well, wanting it all. I want detail, clarity, huge soundstage, extreme separation of instruments with each existing in it's own space, but most of all, I want rich tonal color. Not falsely colored, but I want to hear the wood of the acoustic guitar, the double bass, the violin etc. I want to hear the sound of the wood in the piano, the depth of vocal quality of the singer and the air and space of the venue. This means that tubes need to be a major component. Is this asking too much? (probably).
Suggestions would be appreciated.

I think that becomes the critical step, determining an approach between going the contemporary big complex speaker big power route or going for a simpler and higher sensitivity strategy. You need to choose this first I’d suggest.

If in your thoughts tubes need to be a major component then I’d suggest going higher sensitivity speakers allows you to perhaps explore tubes at their best.

If you are chasing a system that does it all you also might need to define what that all might actually be.

If it’s just about sounds that might lead you to a different set of parameters than if you were to say you’d also want it all in terms of playing diverse music.

I’ve come to my own conclusions about what is important to me but I feel it’s important to better flesh out and define your primary aims or goals as well. Writing a brief system philosophy or mission statement on where you really want to go… create a better more defined vision of where you want to end up and this will help to set up the choice in the next steps to get there.

 

[R S]

You certainly have a collection of “all stars” of which I have only heard the Contriva (great speaker). Some tricky decisions if you so choose and I am sure you will get a lot of good advice. I have no value to add but will watch with interest.

And… good luck!

 

[stehno]

Please look at my signature with the list of components currently in our system. I love each and every item, but I haven't achieved a state of synergy where I'm happy with the results. Part of the problem is the room, I know that and can't do anything about it right now, but will in the future. Despite the room issues, the speakers have been "Master Set".

I think that if I had to start over and could keep only one piece, it would likely be the Taiko. Everything else is "replaceable", I don't know of anything that can match the Taiko.
However, I think that where my system is lacking is in the synergy between the amps and the speakers. Both are really great products, but I think that the speakers would work better with more powerful amps, and the amps would work better with more sensitive speakers (currently about 86db). So that begs the questions, which one should go and what should replace it?
My tastes lean toward wanting...well, wanting it all. I want detail, clarity, huge soundstage, extreme separation of instruments with each existing in it's own space, but most of all, I want rich tonal color. Not falsely colored, but I want to hear the wood of the acoustic guitar, the double bass, the violin etc. I want to hear the sound of the wood in the piano, the depth of vocal quality of the singer and the air and space of the venue. This means that tubes need to be a major component. Is this asking too much? (probably).
Suggestions would be appreciated.

I don't know what you mean exactly by master set speaker placement but if you ask around, it seems everybody is a master at speaker placement. IOW, I would leave that on the table as a viable option for potential improvements. You can always mark the floor to return the speakers to their original position.

My biggest question mark is the PS Audio P20 power generator. Yeah, I realize it gets reasonable or better reviews (what doens't?) but I've had firsthand experience removing customers PS Audio active line conditioners and just plugging the gear directly into the wall where even the customer noticed instant improvement in levels of musicality. BTW, to the best of my knowledge power regenerators do not cleanse, condition, or otherwise purfiy the noisy AC coming in from the street. I've never owned a power regenerator but the rumor is strong.

Moreover, I think the P20 is a 20amp power regenerator and assuming you're plugging everything into the P20, the probability is rather high that your amps are starving for juice for potentially every dynamic/complex piece. If your playback presentation sounds on the flat, boring, lifeless, etc, side of life, this would be my first guess. You can also do the math. A preamp, digital source, and other misc. components draw on average maybe 2 to 4 amps and not sure about your amps but I'm guessing at a minimum 10 and probably 15 amp current draws. Now those are max amps at full throttle but even so adding up your potential amp requirements is perhaps in the 30 - 40 amp range. That's quite a potential load for any 20amp product no matter who might say "no problem". Not to mention, the P20 is drawing plenty of current to itself on top of all the other gear.

Years ago, I had a 300/600/1200wpc McCormack DNA-2 Anniversary edition amplifier that required 20 amp attached to a dedicated passive (drawing little/no current to itself) line conditioner attached to a dedicated 20amp circuit/line. The only other thing shared on that dedicated line was a pre-amp drawing I think 2.3 amps. No biggy, right? Well, when I moved the preamp to its own dedicated line, it was amazing how dynamic the playback presentation became even at lower listening listening volumes. Turns out the preamp even with its small current draw was just enough to choke the performance of the high-powered amp at seemingly every turn.

Anyway, I'd try removing the P20 first. I wouldn't be surprised if you're surprised at the results.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . This means that tubes need to be a major component. Is this asking too much? (probably).
. . .

Dear audiopie,

60 watts on 86dB sensitivity speakers? In my opinion that ain't gonna work.

I do not know what "extreme separation of instruments" means. What does this mean to you?

1) Why do you want this? Do you hear an extreme separation of instruments in the concert hall?

2) I think this is an unattractive and artificial sonic attribute of some solid-state electronics.

This is controversial, but I have my strongly held view that musical genre preference eventually drives loudspeaker preference. Is there a particular musical genre that you focus on, or do you like a little bit of everything?

I think the second question is: Are certain you love the speakers? I personally have found Tidal loudspeakers to be a little bit sterile-sounding. Over the course of seven hours of A/B listening I greatly preferred Audiocrack's vintage Genesis Technologies-based system to his fully-tweaked Tidal La Assoluta system. For the record, Audiocrack greatly preferred the Tidal system.

This is unfair, since I have not heard your system. But I strongly suspect that the sound of Tidal + Boulder + Nordost is not my personal cup of tea. (The amazing Berning 845 can do only so much.)

I have no idea what you should do. But I know what I would do! I would:

-- Keep the Berning amps

-- Replace the Contrivas with Fyne F1-12s

-- Replace the Boulder line stage and the Boulder pre-amp with a line stage and phono stage from Aesthetix, Audio Research, Lamm, VAC or VTL (I do not have a lot of experience with Boulder, but I think I find Boulder, in general, to be sterile-sounding.). Does David Berning make a matching line stage and phono pre-amp to go with the 845 amplifier?

-- I do not know anything about those cables. I would re-start the unavoidable cable morass with simple Mogami cables, and understand how your new system sounds before reverting to fancy cables.

-- I would leave the P20 out of the new system initially, until you understand how your new system sounds without tweaks.

PS1: The Etna SL is the only Lyra cartridge I like.

PS2: I have heard the Taiko Extreme is a dog with fleas. Just to help you out I would be willing to take it off your hands.

Good luck!

 

[bonzo75]

With your Lampi, which valves are you using? Have you tried the 242?

The Berning 211 was a one-off commissioned by the distributor. The Berning quadratures are more powerful. The problem with these amps is if they can drive the speakers, they are known to not drive many. Cmarin on this forum also tried the Berning 211 on his Magico Q7, they ran out of steam and he ended up with big VACs. That amp had been doing the rounds trying to be sold off, it doesn't drive many.

With preamps like Boulder, if the Berning quads don't work, you can try powerful tube amps/ Apart from VAC and CAT, see if you can find the KR VA 200 which is a 200w amp great on tubes and very good drive

Finally, for sticking to solid state, the Audionet Stern and Heisenberg is a very different sound from Boulder but quite awesome and matched with the Lampi Pacific is the possibly the best chain I have heard (at heihei's).

 

[bonzo75]

Or go the Murat route where he replaced the top level Tidal and Gryphon Mephisto with the most spectacular DIY horn journey

 

[bonzo75]

-- Replace the Boulder line stage and the Boulder pre-amp with a line stage and phono stage from Aesthetix, Audio Research, Lamm, VAC or VTL (I do not have a lot of experience with Boulder, but I think I find Boulder, in general, to be sterile-sounding.). Does David Berning make a matching line stage and phono pre-amp to go with the 845 amplifier?

Sterile sounding preamps like Soulution are brilliant with tube amps. Boulder should be similar. Much better than valve preamps. Generally the sterile impression comes from listening to them with their own or another SS power amp.

 

[Tango]

Or go the Murat route where he replaced the top level Tidal and Gryphon Mephisto with the most spectacular DIY horn journey

Actually he could just take my system keep the Taiko and Lampi in the chain match the Dac tube to the Lamm pre and have all the things he wishes.

 

[bonzo75]

Actually he could just take my system keep the Taiko and Lampi in the chain match the Dac tube to the Lamm pre and have all the things he wishes.

Feel free to PM Rudolph your suggestion

 

[Mike Lavigne]

your sources are wonderful, and are worthy of any amp/speaker combination. your amps (i've had them in my system) are top flight, and your speakers are also top flight (not heard that model but i have heard the Akira and was mightily impressed.....not an easy load for modestly powered tubes).

on the one hand, too many changes at the same time become chaos. on the other hand being locked into either the amps or the speakers might prevent the right solution.

i don't know about your room, or your next anticipated room. but you need to start there. if you really want it all, then decide where you are going with your room, and then find a speaker/amp combo that turns you on and is scaled to the room you intend to have. don't feel restricted by keeping your current amps or speakers, but be open to that. but know that the magic will be optimizing your future room around your choice of speakers and amps. room > speakers > amps. no matter your choices, that will only be a starting point. getting even the right room right takes work.

if you are drawn to tubes, but like the refinement, linearity and low noise of solid state, that has been exactly my perspective, and darTZeel amplification has done it for me. i preferred it in my system to your amps, and preferred it to ML3 Lamm's and VAC 450 Statements. then find a 92-95 db efficient speaker that you like that has the right energy for your room. the dart stereo 108 model two won't break the bank and is 200 watts. the dart mono blocks are fantastic, but with a price to match. likely 200 dart watts would work great with your Tidal's depending on the room and your expectations.

 

[Solypsa]

Some great wisdom, advice and perspectives here ( this thread could be a sticky as far as I am concerned ).

@audiopie I don't know if you plan to be in your current home / space long...some basic ( read not tweaky ) work on your power infrastructure might be helpful. Things like testing the grounding and such.

 

[iaxel]

Also everything is much dependent on your room dimensions, the distance between your listening spot and your speakers. As well as your listening volume.
The Contrivas are great speakers, but I’m not sure about rich tonality, that you’ll need to get from matching sources and amplification.

 

[BlueFox]

Please look at my signature with the list of components currently in our system. I love each and every item, but I haven't achieved a state of synergy where I'm happy with the results.

What does that mean?

 

[joel_hifi]

Option 1 - change the speakers for higher sensitivity ones

Option 2 - change the amplification for solid state power amp/s + tube preamp

Subscribed

 

[audiopie]

Wow, what great responses! Eventually, I will try to answer all the questions asked. For now, on limited time before leaving for a trip tomorrow, I'll say that I know that the room is an issue, I'll elaborate further in the future. The PS 20 has a power meter and it shows a constant 1000 watts as the amps are class A and run full bore all the time (at least that is my understanding). So I don't think the PS20 is overloaded, unless I don't understand how this works. I have tried plugging the amps directly into the wall (furutech receptacles) but preferred the sound when plugged into the PS20. However, I do plan to experiment with this some more. I do have a dedicated 20 amp line to the PS20.

I should mention that I also brought in a full loom of Masterbuilt cables on demo, mostly Ultra. Were they better than what I have? Yes, they were better, but not to the extent that it was game changing and for now decided that they were not worth the extremely high cost. I may change my mind about this in the future.

Regarding Master Set, see here: http://www.soundingshifi.com/masterset-speaker-setup/
I have had it done 5 times and it is amazing how well this works. PM me if interested in having this done.
Ron, regarding my statement about Extreme separation of instruments, I mean that each instrument is displayed in it's position in the soundstage, it is very distinctly isolated from others and does not sound diffuse. The imaging of the instrument is tight with air and space around it. As I was building this system, the two components that did the most to achieve this was the Boulder 2110 and the Taiko. My system does this well, but there might be room for improvement, however it is not the area of concern at this time. I have noticed that recordings that are compressed and not so greatly recorded actually contain this information, just not to the extent of a well recorded track. This aspect has made things like classic rock and country more enjoyable to hear on our system. People that have never heard a high end stereo system that visit us, are amazed by the information that they have never heard before on their favorite tracks, one part of that is the separation of instruments.
That's all the time I have now, I'll be gone for about two weeks, the first week pretty much off grid, limited internet the second week. Many thanks to all who have offered input, it is greatly appreciated and each item suggested will be examined and taken seriously.
all the best,
Audiopie

 

[Al M.]

The PS 20 may not look overloaded, but power conditioners easily start to take life out of the sound way below the max rating. I like to have something that is over-dimensioned by a factor 5 to 15. That certainly holds for isolation transformers, but many other conditioners have similar problems.

 

[audiobomber]

Your system is above my pay grade, but the amp and speaker specs indicate a mismatch. I wasn't able to find an impedance graph, but a 4-ohm speaker is a horrible load for a high output impedance OTL amp. Lowish sensitivity of the speaker and moderate amp power compounds the problem.

I heard the Tidal Contriva G2 in Wynn Audio's system at the 2019 Toronto Audio Fest and although it was highly praised by some, it was definitely not my cup of mead. I found the sound bright and highly detailed, more audiophile than melophile. Before making any wholesale changes, I would recommend trying a speaker system that suits your amps and your expressed tastes. Best of luck.

With the 845 tubes, the amplifier clips (with clipping defined as 3% THD) at 83W into 8 ohms. With the 211 tubes, onset of clipping occurs at 72W. The 211/845’s output impedance is 1.7 ohms with the 845 tube, and 3.5 ohms with the 211 installed. This is a high value when contrasted with solid-state amplifiers (whose output impedance is often less than a tenth of an ohm), but actually quite low when compared with other tube amplifiers that employ little or no feedback.

An amplifier’s output impedance is a concern because this impedance interacts with the speaker’s own impedance, which varies with frequency, leading to deviations from flat frequency response. The higher an amplifier’s output impedance, the greater this effect. Moreover, the greater the variation in the loudspeaker’s impedance (as a function of frequency), the greater the frequency-response deviations. Which frequencies are boosted and which are attenuated by this interaction are determined by each speaker’s unique impedance curve. Thus, the tonal balance will change with each speaker the amplifier drives in ways unrelated to the speaker’s intrinsic frequency response.

The David Berning Company 211/845 Power Amplifier - The Absolute Sound

The David Berning Company 211/845 Power Amplifier -

www.theabsolutesound.com

 

[audiopie]

What does that mean?

I just mean that this specific mix of components are not ideally matched to provide the sound I'm searching for. Some other configuration might work better. Don't get me wrong, this system doesn't sound bad, I just know that it can do better.
Another opinion posted about the PS20, I will address this at some point, thanks for the reinforcement.
Regarding the Contriva's, they are very transparent. If your front end is thin or sterile sounding, that's what you will hear, if it is bright, that's what you will hear. "It's a clear glass of water", I quote this from Doug White the US dealer for Tidal, but I think that this sums it up. I have never heard them sound sterile or bright.

For many years I always heard Boulder systems as sounding sterile, but that changed with the 1100 and 2100 series. They maintained detail, clarity, resolution etc, but no longer sound sterile. I guess they could sound sterile with the wrong mix of other components, but I find they achieved a new, improved sound.

Ron, the Fyne F1-12 look interesting. I'll demo them at some point. Oh, I happen to love dogs with fleas ;-)
I also want to clarify that I want to optimize using the digital side, the analog side will be ignored for now.

 

[audiopie]

With your Lampi, which valves are you using? Have you tried the 242?

The Berning 211 was a one-off commissioned by the distributor. The Berning quadratures are more powerful. The problem with these amps is if they can drive the speakers, they are known to not drive many. Cmarin on this forum also tried the Berning 211 on his Magico Q7, they ran out of steam and he ended up with big VACs. That amp had been doing the rounds trying to be sold off, it doesn't drive many.

With preamps like Boulder, if the Berning quads don't work, you can try powerful tube amps/ Apart from VAC and CAT, see if you can find the KR VA 200 which is a 200w amp great on tubes and very good drive

Finally, for sticking to solid state, the Audionet Stern and Heisenberg is a very different sound from Boulder but quite awesome and matched with the Lampi Pacific is the possibly the best chain I have heard (at heihei's).

The valves installed are PX25 KR RK, 274B EML.
A more powerful tube amp is certainly an option, I would love to demo big VACs in my system.