Has anyone heard of Dan D'agostino Relentless Power Amplifier compared to Boulder 3050?

[Papageno]

No I have not yet however I own CH and I know what they have done and I have them on order. I just suggested that you check it out before you pull the trigger on some very serious electronics. We will have it in our showroom this summer along with the Wadax Reference DAC and Server and of course the Göbel speakers. I have spoken to two friends who I do respect very much and trust and they both gave me extremely positive words.
I am very much looking forward to getting them.

You are right. It is not easy to change an amplifier of that grade once purchase it. So I try to listen to as many amps as possible. Please share your experiences with CH10. Thanks!

 

[Papageno]

I did not know they made crossovers. Do they have adjustable delay or continuous phase adjustment ? I could not find much on their home page.

It was made entirely for old original WAMM, only 40Hz cut and gain control. It was not sold individually.

The recent wilson crossover is at the link below.

Wilson Audio ActivXO Dual Subwoofer Crossover & Controller | Specifications, Reviews, Price Comparison, and More | Neofiliac

Wilson Audio ActivXO is an active analogue electronic crossover that provides seamless integration of the subwoofer to the main loudspeakers. Replacing Wilson's WATCH Controller, the ActivXO features two discrete channels. It can be employed in bot...

neofiliac.com

 

[Lagonda]

View attachment 76837

It was made entirely for old original WAMM, only 40Hz cut and gain control. It was not sold individually.

The recent wilson crossover is at the link below.

Wilson Audio ActivXO Dual Subwoofer Crossover & Controller | Specifications, Reviews, Price Comparison, and More | Neofiliac

Wilson Audio ActivXO is an active analogue electronic crossover that provides seamless integration of the subwoofer to the main loudspeakers. Replacing Wilson's WATCH Controller, the ActivXO features two discrete channels. It can be employed in bot...

neofiliac.com

Thank you for your answer, i was asking about the FM Acoustics crossover, not the Wilson

 

[Papageno]

To stay more on topic lol.
No i would certainly not go blind for a relentless.
I d get a pair of momentum monos or a stereo version and just plug them in for a month .
Flash a dealer a bit of cash and convInce him you re seriously interested .
A good dealer demo visit would help , some are very good at set up and have good rooms

Every brand has a house sound just see if you like what you hear .
The relentless is likely just giving you more of the same thing
Your wamm without the accompanying basstowers is not gonna be the ultimate bass monster .
The 3050 s or a relentless pair of amps with limitless power cant solve a problem that most likely lays in the maintowers .

Ps I can design also custom woofer towers .
I just need the exact efficiency from the speakers maintowers .
Preferably some 20 - 20 khz sweeps measured at the listening spot
And passive x overs will be built inside the basstower .
But its not free ...lol

Good luck but if i were you i d get the basstowers and change the room.

Thanks for coming back to the topic. More thanks for your advice.

It seems to be a great way. I heard many saying that the M400 is also great, and I think it will be similar to relentless.

The fact that without the basstower it is difficult to make ultimate sound, I felt enough with the old original wamm.

Can you give me more information with your custom woofer tower?

 

[Elliot G.]

You are right. It is not easy to change an amplifier of that grade once purchase it. So I try to listen to as many amps as possible. Please share your experiences with CH10. Thanks!

I will for sure once I have a pair. My first pair will be here in May and we are going to install them on a pair of Wilson speakers albeit not the ones you have but Wilson's non the less. I will post reactions and hopefully pictures.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Thanks for coming back to the topic. More thanks for your advice.

It seems to be a great way. I heard many saying that the M400 is also great, and I think it will be similar to relentless.

The fact that without the basstower it is difficult to make ultimate sound, I felt enough with the old original wamm.

Can you give me more information with your custom woofer tower?

Hello yes .

Your speaker specs as taken from the wilson site .

Measurements​

Sensitivity
93.5 dB @ 1W @ 1 meter @1 kHz
Nominal Impedance
3 ohms / minimum 1.77 ohms @ 310 Hz
Minimum Amplifier Power
100 watts per channel

With for example a 93,5 db main system my woofer towers would consist of 2 12 inch ETON hexacone membrane woofers per channel mounted in a HPL bass reflex housing, so 1 tower for each channel , they can be set up front firing or sideways , anyway one wants .
1 woofer would be high mounted and 1 low , a passive low pass filter would be inside each woofer tower so the speaker can be connected directly to the same power amp as the main towers .
If one has a power amp with 2 outputs per channel one cable goes to the main tower and the other connection to the bass tower.
If a power amp is used with a single pair of output terminals , 2 cables are connected to the amp terminals 1 goes to the bass tower the other to the main .
If one has a pre amp with double outputs one could Bi amp as well off course .
My passive towers are complimentary bass support systems and not only work in the sub 40 hz region .
Bass is defined as 20 hz to lets say 250 hz .
There is not a lot of music(frequencies ) that go below 35-40 hz , most bass in music is above that , my designs can work in the whole bass region, it depends on the passive filter component values where they cross , lets say 60 -100 hz minimum and 250 -300 max .
Bass will benefit greatly from extra membrane surface in that region , not only in the below 40 hz region .
Futher more the bass reflex pipe can be extended / shortened and the system can be closed completely as well ( room dependant) , high quality footers come standard .
And if one wants to turn fase of the bass tower just put the plus on the minus and the minus on the plus of the bass tower connectors , ( always switch off the power amp before doing that though )
Some times speaker manufacturers will intentionally wire the units inside a speaker " out of fase " to compensate for phase shifts induced by X over components .

Ps i think Chuck made a good suggestion too ask Boulder amps

HPL material speaker example with side firing woofers 11 and 12 inch

DSC04943 by

andromeda61, on Flickr



achterzijde xpe by andromeda61, on Flickr

20150626_182800 by andromeda61, on Flickr

 

[andromedaaudio]

View attachment 76837

It was made entirely for old original WAMM, only 40Hz cut and gain control. It was not sold individually.

The recent wilson crossover is at the link below.

Wilson Audio ActivXO Dual Subwoofer Crossover & Controller | Specifications, Reviews, Price Comparison, and More | Neofiliac

Wilson Audio ActivXO is an active analogue electronic crossover that provides seamless integration of the subwoofer to the main loudspeakers. Replacing Wilson's WATCH Controller, the ActivXO features two discrete channels. It can be employed in bot...

neofiliac.com

See you mentioned this one as having " gain control." , other word for volume control
Carlos seems to think very highly of it , but .....
This is a passive control unit there is no amplifier in it , it means you cannot let the woofer play louder with this , the " only gain " you can control is lowering the gain , most likely via a resistor network .
Now the question is ?
Do you want more resistors in the signal path of a high power woofer system assuming this was the case, i know its at line level but still ??
What one could do is when one wants more bass with this control unit , is using a woofer tower amp with a 3- 4 db higher gain as compared to the main tower amp .This " gain difference " you could again lower untill you re satisfied.

Ps Gain control could off course also be used in this case to reduce the level of the main tower relative to the bass tower .
But that means most likely also more resistors in the signal path ??
Plus you reduce overall system efficiency slightly making it harder to drive

 

[Papageno]

Hello yes .

Your speaker specs as taken from the wilson site .

Measurements​

Sensitivity
93.5 dB @ 1W @ 1 meter @1 kHz
Nominal Impedance
3 ohms / minimum 1.77 ohms @ 310 Hz
Minimum Amplifier Power
100 watts per channel

With for example a 93,5 db main system my woofer towers would consist of 2 12 inch ETON hexacone membrane woofers per channel mounted in a HPL bass reflex housing, so 1 tower for each channel , they can be set up front firing or sideways , anyway one wants .
1 woofer would be high mounted and 1 low , a passive low pass filter would be inside each woofer tower so the speaker can be connected directly to the same power amp as the main towers .
If one has a power amp with 2 outputs per channel one cable goes to the main tower and the other connection to the bass tower.
If a power amp is used with a single pair of output terminals , 2 cables are connected to the amp terminals 1 goes to the bass tower the other to the main .
If one has a pre amp with double outputs one could Bi amp as well off course .
My passive towers are complimentary bass support systems and not only work in the sub 40 hz region .
Bass is defined as 20 hz to lets say 250 hz .
There is not a lot of music(frequencies ) that go below 35-40 hz , most bass in music is above that , my designs can work in the whole bass region, it depends on the passive filter component values where they cross , lets say 60 -100 hz minimum and 250 -300 max .
Bass will benefit greatly from extra membrane surface in that region , not only in the below 40 hz region .
Futher more the bass reflex pipe can be extended / shortened and the system can be closed completely as well ( room dependant) , high quality footers come standard .
And if one wants to turn fase of the bass tower just put the plus on the minus and the minus on the plus of the bass tower connectors , ( always switch off the power amp before doing that though )
Some times speaker manufacturers will intentionally wire the units inside a speaker " out of fase " to compensate for phase shifts induced by X over components .

Ps i think Chuck made a good suggestion too ask Boulder amps

HPL material speaker example with side firing woofers 11 and 12 inch

View attachment 76859 DSC04943 by

andromeda61, on Flickr



achterzijde xpe by andromeda61, on Flickr

20150626_182800 by andromeda61, on Flickr

In my experience, when cut at above 40Hz, the sound tends to become cloudy in the overlapping part.

What do you think in your woofer about this?

 

[andromedaaudio]

In my experience, when cut at above 40Hz, the sound tends to become cloudy in the overlapping part.

What do you think in your woofer about this?

With having an additional woofer tower whether its active or passive .
Its always a fine balance of woofersize, Fs , membrane stiffness /weight, .housing material ,housing volume
The cloudiness you hear is most likely the woofer starting to go out of fase with the signal .
It cannot follow the signal cleanly anymore , this can have many reasons as mentioned above .
MIne sound very clean ,/in fase , i m not afraid for such issues, due to the construction/ design/ lowpass filter used etc
But adding a woofer tower in ones system would ideally happen with a try out off course .
Proof of the pudding is in the eating .
A discerned listener can figure things out easily by listening for a month, or sometimes 5 minutes lol.

Ps.my expiriences with most added subs is that they are never really good in phase in the first place .
Crossing them higher only makes this out of phase rumble more audible .
Crossing them below 20 hz (making them inaudible )would be an improvement l

 

[andromedaaudio]

If you want an impression of what i consider clean bass , here is an organ playing with some of the lowest notes available in music .
Head phones might be better , i know in reality it sounds more impressive then on you tube of course

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have listened a bit to various solid state amps on you tube lately for what its worth and i must say the d agostino relentless sounds very nice , here is a nice demo with wilson alexx speakers and peter mcgrath doing the demo .
I m in the market my self also for solid state amps although the relentless at 250 or so kg per mono bloc is a bit to much

From what i have read is that dan dagostino has left the hardcore measurement camp a bit and spend more time listening while designing the d agostino amplifiers as compered to krell amplifiers( ive owned Krell evo 400 monos )
Boulder is likely a bit more high tech but may be a bit dryer sounding , but i have never heard the 3000 series only the 2010/2060 and i ve owned the 1060 , the 3000 series sounds also great on you tube by the way .
A pre amp defines the sound as you already remarked , in my view there are quit a few brands that can make good power amps but only a few can design a top pre amp .

Coming back on my passive woofer towers , i can for example easily make a second pair of woofer tower terminals which then by pass the internal low pass filter , one could then choose to use the Wilson frequency divider( active /passive X over ) and gain adjusters or the built in version.

Regarding sensitvity ( efficiency )its always beter to see the full freq plot as well of a speaker , see wilson states the sensitivity of the new WAMM at 93,,5 db measured at 1 khz .
This measurement in this case is only at one spot , at 1 khz .

The wilson might just have a slight bump there in the freq range as no speaker is absolutely flat, wilson states a + - 2 db tolerance for the Wamm which is very good by the way .
It could be however that the average sensitvity is lower for example 92 db .
My 2 12 inch woofer tower is 94-95 db, so i m not afraid it would nt work with the WAMM although 3 db deviation is my maximum deviation , these woofer towers would work ideally with everything between 92 db and 96 db as main speaker .

Wilson uses resistors everywhere through their speakes for adjustability , my speakers have no resistors at all inside , and i wanna keep it that way .
Everybody has their own design philosophy.
But i must say the built quality of both the XVX and the WAMM master chronosonic is absolutely stunning i m a technician by trade so i ve seen a lot of machined parts , they have spared no effort .
But the same goes for YG acoustics in their 4 tower series also absolutely stunning
And people complaining about expensive 4 towers etc . whatever , they should be glad that at least some take the effort to design something like that , although these systems need space to breathe

 

[andromedaaudio]

Actually i made a mistake the the above demo was with ARC
Here is the Relentless one sounds great also
Have you ever tried the Gryphon amps ?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Sounds great on you tube , probably the best solid state on you tube .
3010 3050 , there is a second hand 3010 for sale actually at the moment
3050 s too audio jewelry

 

[Amir]

Huge power amplifiers:

Goldmund 8800 2 x 265kg = 530kg
FM Acoustics 2118 2 x 100kg = 200kg
Boulder 3050 2 x 160kg = 320kg
Naim Statement 2 x 100kg = 200kg
Dynaudio Arbiter 2 x 140kg = 280kg
Mark Levinson NO.33 2 x 200kg = 400kg
Dan D’Agostino Relentless 2 x 258kg = 516kg
THE SOVEREIGN 2 x 125kg = 250kg
Pivetta Opera Only 1800kg
Krell MRA 2 x 310kg = 620kg
TOCA SECA 2 x 180kg = 360kg
Analogue Domain apollo

 

[andromedaaudio]

From that list i d buy FM Acoustics

 

[LL21]

From that list i d buy FM Acoustics

I have heard only 2 of those in systems I knew/was familiar with in rooms I knew...Naim Statement, ML33...and then Boulder 2060 (much older), D'Agostino Momeumtum (not in same class presumably), much older Goldmund and earlier Krell References but not the MRA...and also FM monos (not 1811, let alone 118 monos) in our system.

Picking blind, probably would go with either with FM Acoustics or Boulder 3050...depending on load. I would imagine (again blind) that the Boulders would outdrive the FMAs in an all-out test.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have also heard FM in our system (monos but not 1811, let alone 118 monos).

What did you think ?

I heard a lot of of solid state in munchen incl d agostino relentless , not really my thing.
I thought the Boulder 3060 which i heard in portugal is a tad clinical still .

I Still have to hear Karan and Lamm 1.2 ref for the rest i heard most SS i wanted too.

My best value for money would probably still be Halcro Eclipse

 

[andromedaaudio]

Picking blind, probably would go with either with FM Acoustics or Boulder 3050...depending on load. I would imagine (again blind) that the Boulders would outdrive the FMAs in an all-out test.

Power is not the issue lloyd
Do you wanna listen to power or music ?

 

[LL21]

Power is not the issue lloyd
Do you wanna listen to power or music ?

It all matters. The FM 108 monos did not drive the monos anywhere near as well as mid-powered SS amps we had had in the system before, let alone the Mephistos. So as a result, while the music was mellifluous, it also lacked dynamic scale and power to hold the room. So while beautiful, it also felt dimunitive in comparison with the Mephisto and many other 'lesser' amps.

So as with all audio, there is a tradeoff. I have never acquired Boulder for a reason, but I have heard it well tuned where it delivered certain thing stunningly welll...perhaps not everything, but its about the overall presentation for me.

 

[andromedaaudio]

It all matters. The FM 108 monos did not drive the monos anywhere near as well as mid-powered SS amps we had had in the system before, let alone the Mephistos. So as a result, while the music was mellifluous, it also lacked dynamic scale and power to hold the room. So while beautiful, it also felt dimunitive in comparison with the Mephisto and many other 'lesser' amps.

So as with all audio, there is a tradeoff. I have never acquired Boulder for a reason, but I have heard it well tuned where it delivered certain thing stunningly welll...perhaps not everything, but its about the overall presentation for me.

Thats not a fair comparison Lloyd what you did
A prerequisite is off course that the amp can drive the speakers well .
You took the smallest power amp from the FM line up and wanna compare it to the massive top of the product line Memphisto or Boulder 3000 series.

Put a FM 1811 in the mix