Grounding

[amirm]

....but they also add piezo filtering.

What do you mean by piezo filtering? And how does Entreq accomplish that?

 

[esldude]

What do you mean by piezo filtering? And how does Entreq accomplish that?

You probably need to read this.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-geomagnetic-sight

I'll take a stab at this as Per appears not to be willing to divulge his secrets. If I get it wrong, well he can continue not to divulge his secrets.

You have the box, you have magnetite (maybe), you have flat plates, you have electric fields and not hard to imagine(emphasis on this word) the granular stuff is piezoelectric.

Okay, so noxious noise rides along the Eartha cable, into the plates in the box. The plates resonate with this noise, which squeezes the plates back and forth which squeezes the granules back and forth which is easily pictured as piezoelectric crystalline action. Spacing of the plates and etc (sorry redacted info here), are tuned for best effect. You simultaneously have vibration from the sound of the speakers. That will at least at lower frequencies also move the plates created a reverse polarity piezo effect. This will cancel out the music signal allowing the remaining noise to be absorbed by the magnetite. That is why sometimes the Entreq measurements show good effect at lower mains frequencies and less good at higher frequencies. The higher sound frequencies don't make it into the box to activate the plates ability to create piezo filtering to full effect. All makes plenty of sense.

 

[Folsom]

No it doesn't. No noise will ever go upstream to the box. The only noise it can have any affect on is what's in the air around it. That is exactly why most people with an knowledge of electronics first look at it as if it were an antenna.

 

[GaryProtein]

a quick definition for 'ground' is:: A common reference point.
I don't think that many of these boxes bond all the components to a common reference point.

a good solution would be a copper bus-bar terminal strip, with a flat copper braid to the chassis of each component.

bingo!

 

[Folsom]

bingo!

A low inductance grounding reference could be made with a single inductor taken apart. Just find the best way to get good surface area contact to each appliance, and find a way to get compression on it for conductivity. Perhaps make a few holes through it and screw it onto the appliance with existing screws.

You can then skip the bus bar, actually, and what you do is make each leg long enough that you fold them over onto themselves a few times. Now clamp it, and drill two holes through it. Run bolts through and then compress it with a nut and a lock washer.

And realize then that it won't do what the Entreq's do.... but it might do something nice.

 

[jkeny]

'Signal ground' ?
Keith.

What do you not understand? If you try to ask a question, maybe you can be helped?

 

[YashN]

Good engineering practice for grounding systems, both AC power and signal interconnects is well covered by experts like:
Keith Armstrong
Jim Brown
Ralph Morrison
Neal Muncy
Henry Ott
Bill Whitlock

Unfortunately it's Ralph Morrison that has the best system information. But little of his work is available on-line.

You forgot Philip Giddings

 

[YashN]

A good solution would be a copper bus-bar terminal strip, with a flat copper braid to the chassis of each component.

Except it has already been reported that people with good chassis-grounding solutions still benefited from having a purported 'signal' 'grounding' box...

 

[YashN]

The graphs of with and without appear that they act something like a very inefficient version of a shield connected to one end of a cable for low frequencies. It's a guess still, but it appears that's how they work. The piezo material is presumably to stop them from being a huge RF antenna.

NB: the Entreq manufacturer says his device deals with 'high frequency' noise IIRC.

 

[YashN]

You simultaneously have vibration from the sound of the speakers. That will at least at lower frequencies also move the plates created a reverse polarity piezo effect. This will cancel out the music signal allowing the remaining noise to be absorbed by the magnetite.

That seems a convoluted explanation. The sound coming from the speakers isn't a given variable as it depends where you install the box, room characteristics and so on.

 

[YashN]

What is a 'drain' and why would electricity be interested in it?

You would have to start with the correct definition for return currents and how they propagate here.

 

[Folsom]

NB: the Entreq manufacturer says his device deals with 'high frequency' noise IIRC.

It does, by trying not to absorb it. As far as removing it from the system it would appear impossible. No noise will go from the appliance to the box, and the appliances themselves don't radiate much in the RF spectrum.

 

[esldude]

That seems a convoluted explanation. The sound coming from the speakers isn't a given variable as it depends where you install the box, room characteristics and so on.

Low frequencies are hard to absorb or block. Anywhere in your room they will get thru a box that size. Have you listened to it in a way that allows you to say it isn't so?

 

[BE718]

You probably need to read this.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-geomagnetic-sight

I'll take a stab at this as Per appears not to be willing to divulge his secrets. If I get it wrong, well he can continue not to divulge his secrets.

You have the box, you have magnetite (maybe), you have flat plates, you have electric fields and not hard to imagine(emphasis on this word) the granular stuff is piezoelectric.

Okay, so noxious noise rides along the Eartha cable, into the plates in the box. The plates resonate with this noise, which squeezes the plates back and forth which squeezes the granules back and forth which is easily pictured as piezoelectric crystalline action. Spacing of the plates and etc (sorry redacted info here), are tuned for best effect. You simultaneously have vibration from the sound of the speakers. That will at least at lower frequencies also move the plates created a reverse polarity piezo effect. This will cancel out the music signal allowing the remaining noise to be absorbed by the magnetite. That is why sometimes the Entreq measurements show good effect at lower mains frequencies and less good at higher frequencies. The higher sound frequencies don't make it into the box to activate the plates ability to create piezo filtering to full effect. All makes plenty of sense.

Fascinating. Thanks els, honestly, I couldn't attempt to write comic fiction that good. Much appreciated laugh at the end of long week.

So we have a vibration transducer modulating your signal ground. Really not a good idea (assuming you apply any credence to it.)

Btw I use piezo vibration transducers everyday. I'd love to see what level of charge you would get out of the box.


I'm fascinated as to why people all suddenly think they have system noise problems to solve and why they don't think the normal low impedance cable screen is suddenly totally ineffective and additional parallel wiring is required

 

[YashN]

It does, by trying not to absorb it.

As far as removing it from the system it would appear impossible.

Not too sure what you mean by that.

No noise will go from the appliance to the box,.

According to PO, it does.

and the appliances themselves don't radiate much in the RF spectrum.

'don't radiate much' doesn't mean they don't, and doesn't mean the little they do doesn't have an effect on the signal.

Besides, what if the HF content is not directly being generated by the appliance itself?

 

[YashN]

Low frequencies are hard to absorb or block.

Really? Ever heard of bass traps?

Have you listened to it in a way that allows you to say it isn't so?

I've built my own, but that wasn't the point. The point was to try to understand what it does, try to get the simplified model first before adding more variables which are not necessarily a given.

 

[BE718]

According to PO, it does

......and we should take the word of someone who described himself as a farmer as opposed to electrical/electronic engineer?

Someone who is totally unwilling to discuss the technicalities of the box?

That's a serious question BTW, no attempt to denigrate the guy, I would just like to understand his expertise and experience in the area

 

[Folsom]

YashN you're simply trolling at this point.

I'm not sure what "PO" stands for but no one on the face of this earth that knows much about electronics would ever believe noise goes to the box from the appliance. NO ONE. But please start calling every professor in the known world for electronics and try to get a different opinion.

 

[BE718]

YashN you're simply trolling at this point.

I'm not sure what "PO" stands for but no one on the face of this earth that knows much about electronics would ever believe noise goes to the box from the appliance. NO ONE. But please start calling every professor in the known world for electronics and try to get a different opinion.

PO - Per-Olof Friberg, Chief Designer and CEO of Entreq

Apparently he describes himself as a farmer. He got a bit upset on the other thread when people started technically examining the product.

 

[Folsom]

He is afraid that people will steal more of his ideas than they already have. That sucks. But it seems to happen to everyone. Courts are *$#%& on that. Also I respect him saying people shouldn't get so abrasive towards the people that own the product and like it. In no way do I think it surely does nothing. But that's no excuse to accept absolute non-sense. My only real thought is either it does what I think, or it needs more investigation.