Grounding

[jkeny]

I've found PG and SG to be useful terms. Power and signal ground. One reason is that where these two meet may have a huge influence on the sound. They're also distinct as part of the equipment not associated with enclosure/chassis.

Yes & PG carries far noisier & higher currents than SG, so it's important that PG doesn't pollute SG - this is one of the causes of the ground nois eissues

 

[Speedskater]

True, grounding and bonding are often used as synonyms. But bonding really means making a permanent connection, not what it's connected to. "ground' is a troublesome word in itself, with so many different meaning, 'bonding' just adds to the confusion. If we could replace all the 'ground' words in these threads with their proper names, it would go a long way to reduce to confusion.

Some better names:
Earth as in Mother Earth :: GEC :: Grounding Electrode Conductor
Safety Ground/Protective Earth :: EGC :: Equipment Grounding Conductor
Chassis
Shield
Circuit Common
Power Supply Common
Grounding Box

 

[DaveC]

Reading further, Jim Brown doesn't advocate star grounding of equipment chassis as the grounding boxes do, instead he parallels interconnect cables with heavy-gauge grounding cables and runs a single ground cable to the power distribution point.

I've done this many years ago when I lived in an apartment to reduce hum/buzz and it worked great. Now I have all equipment plugged into the same distribution point but I might try his grounding scheme using 4 runs of my 14g litz wire for ground cables.

The other thing that would be nice is if we went back to preamps with gain and amps with much less gain / input sensitivity. The ic cable from pre > amp can have extremely low voltages with zero gain pres and powerful amps with 30+ dB gain. 20 dB gain preamps should be standard imo...

 

[Speedskater]

Yes, Jim Brown calls it PEC & PBC. Keith Armstrong doesn't call it a ground but rather a Conductive Structure.
This is a list of very similar 'good engineering practice' systems.

Grounding Systems

SRPP :: System Reference Potential Plane
STGP :: Signal Transport Ground Plane
ZSRG :: Zero Signal Reference Grid
ZSRG :: Zero Signal Reference Conductors
ZSRP :: Zero Signal Reference Potential
ZSRP :: Zero Signal Reference Plane
MESH-CBN :: Meshed Common Bonding Network
MESH-IBN :: Meshed Isolated Bonding Network
PEC :: Paralleled Earth Conductors
PBC :: Paralleled Bonding Conductors

Conductive Structure

 

[YashN]

YashN you're simply trolling at this point.

Wrong, and your accusations are unacceptable.

 

[YashN]

Audio enthusiasts are given to reporting any number of things.

Art Dudley :: Stereophile Magazine

Yes, just as Scientists report something and then others can investigate for themselves.

 

[YashN]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the title of this thread is "Grounding" & not "Another thread to slag off the Entreq"? Have some people not already satiated their psychological need in denigration of the product?

I agree 100% with you. But for some, the cognitive dissonance is too large...

 

[YashN]

I will state some facts here and see what people think:

1. Superlative sounding systems have been put together by audiophiles without such boxes.

More interestingly, facts from this very forum and CA:

Superlative systems have been put together, then made better with superlative chassis-grounding - Tripoint Troy/Emperor or others - which supposedly resolves grounding/noise issues). However, adding the signal 'grounding' box also is reported to make the sound better.

That's where it's intriguing for me.

Grounding is a complex subject, even without the audio application.

Do not expect to understand it and its effects in an audio system if you haven't read Morrison, Ott, Armstrong, Brown, Muncy, Whitlock and Giddings, if you haven't understood why balance > unbalanced, the Pin 1 problem in Balanced sometimes encountered, stray currents etc...

Nor if you can't clearly state how return currents work by the definition in Physics (people get that one wrong a lot).

Another thing you can do to study this is to look at similar issues in medical devices (chassis grounding and stray currents).

 

[YashN]

The problem in audio is grounding is poorly understood! So some equipment is properly grounded and other bits are not. IMO, rather than using a grounding box which is really expensive and yielding highly variable results, instead if there is a grounding problem the equipment with the problems should be fixed. To that end it should meet UL or CE grounding requirements (meaning that the chassis will be grounded through the AC power cord to the building ground) and at the same time not susceptible to ground loops. If the gear meets those criteria, an external grounding box won't bring anything to the table.

Absolutely: it is quite a complex subject no matter which field it is applied to.

Now, we can imagine if a single component has grounding/design issues, what combined issues in a whole system can create for SQ.

 

[YashN]

......and we should take the word of someone who described himself as a farmer as opposed to electrical/electronic engineer?

No, we should investigate whether what he provides as explanation correlates with actual functioning.

I'm an Engineer and I also plant plants, so what's your point?

BTW, no attempt to denigrate the guy

Really, eh?

 

[BE718]

No, we should investigate whether what he provides as explanation correlates with actual functioning.

I'm an Engineer and I also plant plants, so what's your point?



Really, eh?

Im not aware of him providing any explanation so far in terms of electrical/electronic engineering.

My point is that farming is not a relevant discipline. Why would you describe yourself as a farmer when what is being discussed is electrical/electronic engineering? Does he have any qualifications or experience in this field?

If he doesnt I would suggest he denigrates himself.

BTW I have just noticed in another post he admitted " You are right. I can´t handle the measure instruments myself". ANY competent electrical/electronic engineer knows how to use measurement kit.

 

[Speedskater]

Yes, just as Scientists report something and then others can investigate for themselves.

You do know that there is a vast difference between a scientist doing a presentation and a 'audio enthusiast reporting any number of things', don't you?

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

You do know that there is a vast difference between a scientist doing a presentation and a 'audio enthusiast reporting any number of things', don't you?

Apparently not. A parallel thought to this was expressed recently in another forum: one audiophile heard a difference, therefore we will have to throw all our textbooks on physics, acoustics, electronics, and audio engineering out the window while we accommodate this new discovery.

 

[amirm]

More interestingly, facts from this very forum and CA:

Superlative systems have been put together, then made better with superlative chassis-grounding - Tripoint Troy/Emperor or others - which supposedly resolves grounding/noise issues).

Where is defensible objective data that their systems have become better?

However, adding the signal 'grounding' box also is reported to make the sound better.

Strange that such devices only make things better yet grounding issues easily go in either direction as evidenced by hum in systems and lack thereof in others

Grounding is a complex subject, even without the audio application.

Only if you don't understand it which unfortunately includes countless people including engineers. But the fundamentals are not complicated.

Do not expect to understand it and its effects in an audio system if you haven't read Morrison, Ott, Armstrong, Brown, Muncy, Whitlock and Giddings, if you haven't understood why balance > unbalanced, the Pin 1 problem in Balanced sometimes encountered, stray currents etc...

I have read Ott's book and hired him as a consultant decades back when I managed development of computer workstations. I have also explained the work of Whitlock numerous times here and elsewhere. Show me where they discuss such devices as we are discussing in this thread. They would flip over and have a heart attack if they came within a mile of one.