Graham Phantom Elite

[number95]

Do any of the Graham Phantom Elite Owners know if Bob ever published a Set-up/Instruction manual specific to the Elite? I purchased an Elite earlier in 2015 and it came with a Phantom 2.2 Manual.

Thanks,
Kyle

The answer as far as I know is no, and an upcoming manual won't happen.

 

[rockitman]

There is no difference in the set up between the Elite and previous generations. Same spindle cup for pivot to spindle parameter and of course the Blue jig for 9" arms, red for 10" and Silver for 12" for zenith/over hang set up params.

 

[number95]

There is no difference in the set up between the Elite and previous generations. Same spindle cup for pivot to spindle parameter and of course the Blue jig for 9" arms, red for 10" and Silver for 12" for zenith/over hang set up params.

Antiskate, vta, vtf and azimuth adjustments are also similar to earlier Phantom models. Anti damping fluid is different tough. Btw regarding different color jigs for different lentghs, my Elite has a silver jig while it was labeled as 9 inch. I remember my B44 9 inch had blue.

 

[Frank750]

+1
I also have mint lp designed for Ikeda 407 tonearm. Unlike Graham, mint lp helps a lot for Ikeda. You can not use a protractor like Dr Feickert as the tonearm bearing is inside a sphere which you can not fix the centre easily. So once you make sure p2s distance is correct, mint lp is essential to make overhang and zenith. The paper protractor provided by Ikeda is only useful for overhang but not zenith.

I went for more than a year with my Elite set up using the Graham jig. Always felt there was a little something missing, checked and rechecked a number of times using the supplied jig. Decided to order a Mint and after waiting a couple of months it showed up this week. The overhang set up turned out to be significantly different using the Mint vs the Graham jig so I thought there was something wrong. Turns out I was wrong thinking something was wrong. A rather large and surprising improvement all around. Really happy I got the Mint. I feel like I have the Goldfinger dialed in much better now.

 

[Steve Williams]

Where did you get it Frank that the wait was so long

 

[Frank750]

Where did you get it Frank that the wait was so long

Got it from Yip in Hong Kong. I think the timing had something to do with when I ordered it in his manufacturing and shipping cycle. He ships air mail from Hong Kong and it sat at my local post office for more than a week before I went and picked it up too.

Well worth the expense and effort involved to use it. Not sure why I prefer it to the jig and Christian and Number 95 prefer the jig but for me it's not even close.

 

[number95]

Got it from Yip in Hong Kong. I thing the timing had something to do with when I ordered it in his manufacturing and shipping cycle. He ships air mail from Hong Kong and it sat at my local post office for more than a week before I went and picked it up too.

Well worth the expense and effort involved to use it. Not sure why I prefer it to the jig and Christian and Number 95 prefer the jig but for me it's not even close.

Hi Frank,

I am happy for you. Yip is a great guy. When I ordered my first mint lp and then got it, the spindle hole was not perfectly fitted to my tt's spindle and while I tried to fit it, it was almost broken from the hole part. He resent another one free. Unfortunately that also didn't work he sent another replacement as well, finally that worked.

I understand that there is not a clear cut one solution for aligning and perhaps each method has its pros and cons and depending on rest of the system, one may prefer one over other, who knows. It has been also interesting for me to hear that from you.

Best.

 

[ack]

A lot of use rely on MintLP from Yip to set up our analog correctly; he's doing things so right

 

[PeterA]

I use a MINT LP from Yip also. It is incredibly precise and easy to use with the sliding base of SME arms. I particularly like the lines at the null points allowing one to align the cantilever for proper ZENITH. I had to specify the spindle hole diameter when ordering as well as the stylus to cartridge mounting hole distance.

Frank, I'm curious about the differences with the Graham Jig. How was the overhang different between the Graham jib and Mint? Does that mean the spindle to pivot was also different?

Here is a photo showing how different the arcs are between the 9" SME V and 12" SME V12 arms. Note the flatness of the arc and shorter overhang with the V12 in the top MINT. Cartridge alignment is all about precision.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I owned 2 Graham arms back in the day. excellent products. and as a newbie I appreciated the whole arm wand-jig thing for alignment that made it simple for me.

however; since then I've always wondered whether the 'loading' on the Graham jig was really accurate, and whether the precision of the jig was sufficient. how could that loading be absolutely right for every cartridge? of course it cannot be.

I'm a big believer in the Mint Lp and it's precise lines and lack of any ambiguity on absolute set-up. and it's cheap.

 

[number95]

I owned 2 Graham arms back in the day. excellent products. and as a newbie I appreciated the whole arm wand-jig thing for alignment that made it simple for me.

however; since then I've always wondered whether the 'loading' on the Graham jig was really accurate, and whether the precision of the jig was sufficient. how could that loading be absolutely right for every cartridge? of course it cannot be.

I'm a big believer in the Mint Lp and it's precise lines and lack of any ambiguity on absolute set-up. and it's cheap.

Another vote for Mint it seems.

Again for my case I first tried Feickert and then Mint, much later tried Graham jig. And never looked back. Really curious how some of us prefer Mint or vice versa for the same arm.

 

[Frank750]

Frank, I'm curious about the differences with the Graham Jig. How was the overhang different between the Graham jib and Mint? Does that mean the spindle to pivot was also different?

No Peter, spindle to pivot doesn't change but the position of the cartridge mount is significantly farther back in the head shell using the Mint as compared to the Graham jig. Sounded good with the jig and it took a while to dial it in but I could tell immediately the Mint set up was better.

 

[XV-1]

No Peter, spindle to pivot doesn't change but the position of the cartridge mount is significantly farther back in the head shell using the Mint as compared to the Graham jig. Sounded good with the jig and it took a while to dial it in but I could tell immediately the Mint set up was better.

Graham alignment is his own, so does not follow any of the normal alignments like Barewald, Loefgren or Stevenson algorithm. Mint primarily uses Barewald for his tractors. Graham's alignment is closer to Stevenson, hence is further forward in the headshell than Barewald - Loefgren is slightly further back again.

I might bring out my Mint tractor for my Graham and compare again. I did that several years back and preferred the Graham jig. It might change this time

 

[PeterA]

No Peter, spindle to pivot doesn't change but the position of the cartridge mount is significantly farther back in the head shell using the Mint as compared to the Graham jig. Sounded good with the jig and it took a while to dial it in but I could tell immediately the Mint set up was better.

Frank, thanks for the clarification. So you are talking about pivot to stylus distance, and that effects overhang, or horizontal tracking angle. The arc is also less flat as the cartridge moves back in the headshell and the pivot to stylus distance decreases.

 

[audioblazer]

Is the thickness of the glass an issue ? Certainly thicker than a 200g LP

 

[PeterA]

Is the thickness of the glass an issue ? Certainly thicker than a 200g LP

That's a good question. I raise my arm slightly so that it is level before I start the alignment process. I then lower the arm so that it is level for my LPs. However, I then adjust VTA slightly and individually for each LP and then keep a log so that I can return to a particular VTA setting before I play the LPs. The arm tends to be very close to level when the VTA sounds right for each LP, but it is not always perfectly level. I do this by ear also. It is not an exact process, unfortunately.

My SME paper protractor is thin cardboard. When I used it before getting the MINT, I placed it on an average thickness LP before I started the alignment process.

The thickness of these protractors effects Horizontal Tracking Angle or overhang which changes with arm height, so I would try to compensate in some way to account for that. It also effects VTF, but that should be adjusted by ear once the alignment is set.

 

[rockitman]

No Peter, spindle to pivot doesn't change but the position of the cartridge mount is significantly farther back in the head shell using the Mint as compared to the Graham jig. Sounded good with the jig and it took a while to dial it in but I could tell immediately the Mint set up was better.

That's interesting. When I got a Mint for a 10" Graham Supreme I was not able to use the graham spindle cup for pivot to spindle distance as Yip was a different measurement...I had to use a Feikert protractor with the nail in the bottom of the pivot cup that holds the damping fluid. It was far from perfect. It sounded okay to me and I used it that way for 6 mos. I went back to the Graham jig and have not looked back. The sound is perfect from lead in to lead out groove...hardly any dulling of the sound for the inner most grooves and no perceptible distortion using the jig when done accurately...takes some practice. In any event I would recommend listening this way for a while getting used to the Yip sound and then go back and do a graham jig mount. You might be surprised. With a Koetsu Coralstone mounted with a graham jig on my rig, the mount screws are nearly as far back as they can go....maybe only 2mm left to slide back in the headshell See Photo...

 

[Frank750]

That's interesting. When I got a Mint for a 10" Graham Supreme I was not able to use the graham spindle cup for pivot to spindle distance as Yip was a different measurement...I had to use a Feikert protractor with the nail in the bottom of the pivot cup that holds the damping fluid. It was far from perfect. It sounded okay to me and I used it that way for 6 mos. I went back to the Graham jig and have not looked back. The sound is perfect from lead in to lead out groove...hardly any dulling of the sound for the inner most grooves and no perceptible distortion using the jig when done accurately...takes some practice. In any event I would recommend listening this way for a while getting used to the Yip sound and then go back and do a graham jig mount. You might be surprised. With a Koetsu Coralstone mounted with a graham jig on my rig, the mount screws are nearly as far back as they can go....maybe only 2mm left to slide back in the headshell See Photo...

What do you mean different measurement for pivot to spindle? I used the measurement and drawing Bob sent me and I sent that to Yip.

 

[rockitman]

What do you mean different measurement for pivot to spindle? I used the measurement and drawing Bob sent me and I sent that to Yip.

On my Mint the Effective length for a 10" Supreme which I believe is the same for the Elite is 247.7mm. The Graham 10" is 248mm.

Yip Pivot to spindle(mounting distance) on my Mint protractor is 231mm. On the Graham with spindle cup used to set the distance with an un-mounted arm wand is 229.4. I got these values from Yip himself as he has done the measuring. For some reason, Graham does not list this info for the 10". He does show the effective length for the 9" and 12" wands in his outdate manual but no pivot to spindle distance. Nowhere in the manual do I find measurements for the 10", which is unfortunate.

So the measurements are slightly different.

While I have no complaints with the jig setup, maybe I did it wrong the first time around with Mint. I may try it again with the mint soon.

What is the effective length of the arm printed on your Mint mirror ? Mine says 247.7mm

How did you set pivot to spindle ? Did you use the graham supplied spindle cup with an un-mounted arm want to set the distance then used the Mint for the zenith/offset ?

 

[Frank750]

On my Mint the Effective length for a 10" Supreme which I believe is the same for the Elite is 247.7mm. The Graham 10" is 248mm.

Yip Pivot to spindle(mounting distance) on my Mint protractor is 231mm. On the Graham with spindle cup used to set the distance with an un-mounted arm wand is 229.4. I got these values from Yip himself as he has done the measuring. For some reason, Graham does not list this info for the 10". He does show the effective length for the 9" and 12" wands in his outdate manual but no pivot to spindle distance. Nowhere in the manual do I find measurements for the 10", which is unfortunate.

So the measurements are slightly different.

While I have no complaints with the jig setup, maybe I did it wrong the first time around with Mint. I may try it again with the mint soon.

What is the effective length of the arm printed on your Mint mirror ? Mine says 247.7mm

How did you set pivot to spindle ? Did you use the graham supplied spindle cup with an un-mounted arm want to set the distance then used the Mint for the zenith/offset ?

Didn't do any measuring.

Got the dimensions from Bob Graham and sent it to Yip, then got the Mint from Yip: