GG, Nagra HD, Aqua Formula, and SGM server.

[Mike Lavigne]

while Ed was here I received 2 of the new Sablon unpowered USB's with the new 'secret sauce', that were an improvement over my unpowered Sablon USB on the Nagra. unfortunately; we could not try that on the Aqua since it needs a powered USB.

so I had to use the powered USB supplied inside the Aqua Formula box. and that cable in the system is the performance I've been describing. I'm told a new Sablon powered USB with the 'secret sauce' is in transit to me. Ed took my unpowered Sablon with him.

I will report the difference when that cable is in system.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Barry,

What sharp eyes you have !!

I missed seeing that when I had the cover off !!

Let me find out what the value is

so please tell us mere listeners what we are looking at?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

looking at that pic of the inside of the Aqua Formula reminds me to point out that the XLR outputs were, for whatever reason, much better sounding on the Aqua Formula than the RCA's. I used a semi-generic set of XLR's and they were quite a bit better than my $31k Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution w/HRX RCA's. this somewhat flabbergasted me, since previously I had switched from other RCA's to the GME's and that was huge on the GG, and I had also had a set of XLR Tara GME's for my Trinity dac so I know how great those Tara RCA's sound.

we did notice a set of transformers on the XLR analog output board of the Aqua Formula. it's possible that these transformers might work like the ones that sound so great you have to pay extra for on the Nagra HD. they might keep digital noise from the output.

so don't judge the Aqua Formula unless you hear it with the XLR outputs. I'm happy that my dart pre now is outstanding with XLR inputs.....but know just how great it sounds with single ended sources.....RCA......so this is a clear indication about the XLR's.

 

[morricab]

looking at that pic of the inside of the Aqua Formula reminds me to point out that the XLR outputs were, for whatever reason, much better sounding on the Aqua Formula than the RCA's. I used a semi-generic set of XLR's and they were quite a bit better than my $31k Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution w/HRX RCA's. this somewhat flabbergasted me, since previously I had switched from other RCA's to the GME's and that was huge on the GG, and I had also had a set of XLR Tara GME's for my Trinity dac so I know how great those Tara RCA's sound.

we did notice a set of transformers on the XLR analog output board of the Aqua Formula. it's possible that these transformers might work like the ones that sound so great you have to pay extra for on the Nagra HD. they might keep digital noise from the output.

so don't judge the Aqua Formula unless you hear it with the XLR outputs. I'm happy that my dart pre now is outstanding with XLR inputs.....but know just how great it sounds with single ended sources.....RCA......so this is a clear indication about the XLR's.

OR your Tara Labs cables aren't nearly as good as they cost...it is a possibility that you have not mentioned...

 

[Blue58]

so please tell us mere listeners what we are looking at?

Sorry, should've said. Centre of pic is a green fuseholder, so you have the option to play with alternate fuses.
Consensus around here is that SR Black are the go to fuses while I like the AM Beeswax in my SGM.

Will the addition of the Sablon 'outrageous' USB, as Ed calls it, and upgraded fuse take it level with analogue or above?

Cheers
Blue58

 

[microstrip]

so please tell us mere listeners what we are looking at?

An unconnected ground tag at the power supply connector?

 

[sbo6]

Thanks very much Mike for the great review of 3 great DACs and several music servers. It sounds like the Formula is the best bang for your $ and something I may soon consider.

 

[es347]

..what an enjoyable thread...thanks Mike. I play in a much smaller sandbox but always enjoy reading how the other half lives. It's a lot like perusing the Playboy centerfold: being aroused but knowing full well satisfaction will have to be accomplished by other means

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Not wishing to contradict anyone here but... I'm not so sure that the "importance of the digital transport" is really all that new.

Many years ago I bought the Totaldac d1 server and this made a pretty big difference to the enjoyment of my (at the time) Devialet 800. Indeed I felt that it was massively influential. We've seen this for a few years on the Devialet forum now, endless threads about different transports ranging from the über expensive to the factory direct mR. So yes digital transports can make a very big difference to the performance of a DAC. This is nothing new.

Only a year ago we heard from Alan Sircom and co and his experiences pairing the Exogal Comet with the Melco and finding that it got frighteningly close to the performance of top flight DACs out there, I think a Nagra HD got mentioned didn't it?

Of course the SGM is a relatively new and exciting development but I don't think we can credit it with turning the paradigm on its head.

Guillaume

Please see post from Ed as a response because it summarises perfectly all the relevant points.

As to a Melco making a Comet frighteningly close to top flight dacs - well I think that is absurd. I know very well this precise combination and have compared it directly to average priced gear and it got beaten relatively easily.

Have you heard the SGM in your system then?

Would love to see a survey of the amount of money invested in a large sample of audiophile systems between transport (not talking about cd's but all else) and dac. I would be very surprised not to find that the financial investment is very weighted in the dac.

Also, I actually think that there is still undoubtedly a bits is bits attitude amongst many audiophiles. Also my observation of some extremely expensive systems at Munich and many other shows being fronted with "just" a bog standard laptop!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I remember this particular system as sticking out in this manner:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=m...C&biw=768&bih=960&dpr=2#imgrc=ipCjI6idEoiSpM:

 

[Mike Lavigne]

OR your Tara Labs cables aren't nearly as good as they cost...it is a possibility that you have not mentioned...

no cable is worth $31k, neither does anyone pay list price for ultra-uber cables. and I'm not getting into a cable discussion on this thread. there are lots of posts about this cable out there for people to read should they want to. Audiocrack and I have both posted here about it.

my only point was to inform people that you need to plan on XLR's to get the most from the Aqua Formula.

 

[GuillaumeB]

Please see post from Ed as a response because it summarises perfectly all the relevant points.

As to a Melco making a Comet frighteningly close to top flight dacs - well I think that is absurd. I know very well this precise combination and have compared it directly to average priced gear and it got beaten relatively easily.

Have you heard the SGM in your system then?

Would love to see a survey of the amount of money invested in a large sample of audiophile systems between transport (not talking about cd's but all else) and dac. I would be very surprised not to find that the financial investment is very weighted in the dac.

Also, I actually think that there is still undoubtedly a bits is bits attitude amongst many audiophiles. Also my observation of some extremely expensive systems at Munich and many other shows being fronted with "just" a bog standard laptop!

I haven't heard the SGM in my system and would be very interested in comparing it to my d1 server.

Anyway I obviously didn't do a terribly good job of getting my point across and I can see that I've rubbed you up the wrong way, apologies Bill that wasn't my intention.

Just saying that some of us have taken the transport side of things very seriously for a while. A couple of years ago I heard the the Vivaldi Upsampler with a Devialet rig and was hugely impressed. I believe it was doing some upsampling and conversion to DSD at the time. It certainly had me scratching my head in a cloudy haze of man maths computations.

As to the lowly Comet I had one here for a few months and ran it before my d1-six arrived. I thought it was very competent DAC, I merely picked this example since it was a case of spending more on the transport than the DAC.

Guillaume

 

[tunes]

Mike,
Thanks for posting about your detailed evaluation.
Couple of questions related to the HD DAC. Some folks have reported that the balanced transformer board option for true balanced XLR out was not an improvement over the unbalanced RCA out. Wondering if you had a chance to switch the jumpers on the board to try both ways and if this led to a preference for the transformer option.
Also, wondering if you were using the MPS with optional battery for the digital side of the HD's DC power in. I have heard mixed reports about this. Some finding the battery option provides lower noise but less clarity and dynamics than not using the battery option. All seem to agree that the battery option works very well / benefits on the nagra VPS phono stage however.
Lastly, do you recall which Nagra HD version you used? Apparently, there have been several minor updates since the initial release, (maybe software updates as well?) and there is another update/upgrade scheduled for later this year, along with the release of a new, larger power supply dedicated specifically for the HD DAC.
Thanks
Chris

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,
Thanks for posting about your detailed evaluation.
Couple of questions related to the HD DAC. Some folks have reported that the balanced transformer board option for true balanced XLR out was not an improvement over the unbalanced RCA out. Wondering if you had a chance to switch the jumpers on the board to try both ways and if this led to a preference for the transformer option.
Also, wondering if you were using the MPS with optional battery for the digital side of the HD's DC power in. I have heard mixed reports about this. Some finding the battery option provides lower noise but less clarity and dynamics than not using the battery option. All seem to agree that the battery option works very well / benefits on the nagra VPS phono stage however.
Lastly, do you recall which Nagra HD version you used? Apparently, there have been several minor updates since the initial release, (maybe software updates as well?) and there is another update/upgrade scheduled for later this year, along with the release of a new, larger power supply dedicated specifically for the HD DAC.
Thanks
Chris

Chris,

thank you.

the Nagra HD dac we had did not have the batteries; only the added power supply. we had intended to try switching those jumpers to try the RCA's but the delta of the Aqua Formula was so overwhelming in my system we never went back to the Nagra HD to try that option. we had listened to the Nagra from Wednesday night to Friday morning so we had a pretty good handle on it.

the Nagra we had was a fresh unit received by Ed in the last 3 weeks, so I'm assuming it had all the latest stuff. but i'll let Ed clarify that issue.

 

[EuroDriver]

Chris,

thank you.

the Nagra HD dac we had did not have the batteries; only the added power supply. we had intended to try switching those jumpers to try the RCA's but the delta of the Aqua Formula was so overwhelming in my system we never went back to the Nagra HD to try that option. we had listened to the Nagra from Wednesday night to Friday morning so we had a pretty good handle on it.

the Nagra we had was a fresh unit received by Ed in the last 3 weeks, so I'm assuming it had all the latest stuff. but i'll let Ed clarify that issue.

The Nagra HD was shipped from the factory before Christmas, but without the output transformers we wanted. The transformers were received after Christmas and installed my me. We had the unit running in Holland for about 10 days before bringing it to Seattle. At Mikes I changed the voltage from 230 v to 115 volts, so the jumpers were brand new as was the Synergistic Black fuse, I put in.

What Mike describes as a varnish, I would describe as a body and coherence to the sound which the Nagra adds which I personally find quite seductive. I am a self confessed detail freak, but with the Nagra HD singing, I was not missing the micro detail and nano detail that's possible with a top of line DSD 512 DAC , but instead drinking in the full bodyness of the Nagra sound. For me the Nagra is the least "fatiguing" digital I have heard.

The Aqua Formula is absolutely superb, especially for a detail freak like me. We have not heard it yet with Sablon's new cable in a powered version, nor have we heard it with a SR Black fuse, so there almost sure to be some additional upside.


The Lampi GG with it's alchemy of DHT magic, can be an absolute heart string plucker for some audiophiles who prioritize emotion over the distraction of too much detail. If you are willing to tube roll, and listen with your heart, then the GG is a DAC to date, and you may fall in love with it's charms

Note the best sounding DSD 512 DAC is in our lab in Holland, and not on the market, and will most likely stay in the lab. We have too many DAC designing friends who we deeply respect, and quite frankly I don't think we can match the price / performance they are offering

 

[BruceD]

Thanks very much Mike for the great review of 3 great DACs and several music servers. It sounds like the Formula is the best bang for your $ and something I may soon consider.

Indeed Kudos Mike for the Excellent review of the DACs I was especially interested to see the Aqua Formula is the Lampizator beater--I was considering the latter but the Aqua

has surpassed it in my considerations --thank you for the fine Writings and time.

Carry on with the Great postings!!:b

BruceD

 

[EuroDriver]

Indeed Kudos Mike for the Excellent review of the DACs I was especially interested to see the Aqua Formula is the Lampizator beater--I was considering the latter but the Aqua

has surpassed it in my considerations --thank you for the fine Writings and time.

Carry on with the Great postings!!:b

BruceD

The Aqua Formula beats the Lampi GG on Detail and transparency, but there are a lot of very happy Lampi owners who love the emotional reproduction of brass instruments and the human voice that the GG delivers, and the sonic flexibility that tube rolling brings. My gut feel is that a large proportion of these Lampi owners will not be persuaded to switch by the additional detail and transparency of the Aqua Formula

 

[spiritofmusic]

Edward, I've heard the SGM now many times at Blue58's alongside the T&A Dac8, and I am truly bowled over by it
Also I've heard it at Audiophile Bill's w the GG, although the a/b was not totally fair since the GG was doing 128 or 256, and the T&A in the same demo that we swapped to was doing 512
On balance I much preferred the T&A at Bill's than the GG
Dynamics, transparency and verve were more marked, w the GG having the edge on tonal density
IMHO/YMMV etc
I am so much the fan of Blue's sound, can I ask where the Aqua Formula takes the sound w SGM beyond SGM w T&A?

 

[EuroDriver]

Edward, I've heard the SGM now many times at Blue58's alongside the T&A Dac8, and I am truly bowled over by it
Also I've heard it at Audiophile Bill's w the GG, although the a/b was not totally fair since the GG was doing 128 or 256, and the T&A in the same demo that we swapped to was doing 512
On balance I much preferred the T&A at Bill's than the GG
Dynamics, transparency and verve were more marked, w the GG having the edge on tonal density
IMHO/YMMV etc
I am so much the fan of Blue's sound, can I ask where the Aqua Formula takes the sound w SGM beyond SGM w T&A?

Hi Marc,

The balance of sonic traits of the Aqua Formula is very much in the vein of the T+A DAC 8 DSD. If you liked the T+A, I am very confident that you will absolutely love the Aqua Formula. However the Aqua Formula is 4 times the price and has about 6 times the number of parts inside.

The Aqua La Scala II Optologic is significantly less expensive and very good sounding too. It has tubes in the output stage which can be nicely beneficial in many systems.

We will be bundling the La Scala II and the Formula with the SGM in an attractive package price in the EU. In the US we have SGM bundles with the T+A DAC 8 DSD, La Scala II and Formula.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Edward, I love tubes, but w my NATs tube amps sating my desires there, I'm not minded to run a tubed dac or phono
Indeed I've never been convinced by any non SS phono or pre
So, the Formula as a non tubed dac more likely up my street than the Scala
Can you compare and contrast the attributes of the Dac8 and the Formula?
Atm, I'm putting serious consideration into going down an initial but also final destination streamer/dac, and I've been well and truly spoiled by exposure to Barry's exemplary SGM/Dac8
What would swapping in the Formula bring significantly additional to the table?
I'll keep in contact w you and Sablon Audio re any future possibilities re this combination
With my new £40k audio room truly emptying my upgrade budget, this will have to remain a project, but my mind is considering the practicalities