Found Music 2A3 Amplifier

[Mike Lavigne]

i mentioned that when my amp stands arrived i would take more pictures. here ya go.

you can see close-ups of the Stillpoints footers, the new Ultra SS. there is a nice writeup in Absolute Sound this month by Robert Harley on them.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Certainly cuts down on retubing costs

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Certainly cuts down on retubing costs

oh; you maybe want to see pictures with the tubes glowing do you?

earlier this week i did switch back to the darTZeel....for a time. since i'm listening to the new Telos arm mostly and my vinyl reference is with the darTZeel amp; i wanted to be able to get a clear picture on the differences. that's the problem with getting more than one new toy at the same time.....it's hard to get your bearings.

 

[mep]

Mike-So what happened when you switched back to the darTZeel?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike-So what happned when you switched back to the darTZeel?

when i switched back to the darTZeel the 2a3's had about 110 hours on them; the 2a3's had gone thru the various changes up and down and openned up and settled down.....but were still improving. so i have not heard their very best yet (according to Scott Sheaffer the builder).

the darts don't have the magical clarity and uber low distortion of the 2a3's, really nothing does. that level of delicacy and utter refinement is unique. but the dart does do well in those areas compared to pretty much anything else. and the dart does have the same neutrality of the 2a3's. both the 2a3's and the dart share that very un-colored but very natural viewpoint on the music.

for instance; the 2a3's are more real sounding than the Lamm ML2.1's i had in my room last year; which are 'dark' sounding and a bit less immediate than the 2a3's. in that way the darts are more to my taste. the darts and the 2a3's have less of their own signature on the sound.

the dart brings a much greater sense of energy and fills the room without strain compared to the 2a3's. the darts have much greater bass impact and foundation; but the 2a3's actually have better bass articulation and fine detail rendering in the bass. a cello heard on the 2a3's is really something to experience.

i moved my chair 10 inches closer for the 2a3's, and when moving it back for the dart i lose a touch of intimacy, but it's replaced by scale and greater sense of space and heft.

no doubt the dart is a better match in my room for my speakers in terms of allowing all types of music to be fully expressed. with the 2a3 we are talking maybe 60-70% of the music is able to be fully renedered without being aware of something missing.

now that i've been back listening to the dart's for a week i can tell what i'm missing compared to the 2a3's. but also what i'm gaining. and i'm just coming to terms on how that makes me feel.

 

[mep]

when i switched back to the darTZeel the 2a3's had about 110 hours on them; the 2a3's had gone thru the various changes up and down and openned up and settled down.....but were still improving. so i have not heard their very best yet (according to Scott Sheaffer the builder).

the darts don't have the magical clarity and uber low distortion of the 2a3's, really nothing does. that level of delicacy and utter refinement is unique. but the dart does do well in those areas compared to pretty much anything else. and the dart does have the same neutrality of the 2a3's. both the 2a3's and the dart share that very un-colored but very natural viewpoint on the music.

for instance; the 2a3's are more real sounding than the Lamm ML2.1's i had in my room last year; which are 'dark' sounding and a bit less immediate than the 2a3's. in that way the darts are more to my taste. the darts and the 2a3's have less of their own signature on the sound.

the dart brings a much greater sense of energy and fills the room without strain compared to the 2a3's. the darts have much greater bass impact and foundation; but the 2a3's actually have better bass articulation and fine detail rendering in the bass. a cello heard on the 2a3's is really something to experience.

i moved my chair 10 inches closer for the 2a3's, and when moving it back for the dart i lose a touch of intimacy, but it's replaced by scale and greater sense of space and heft.

no doubt the dart is a better match in my room for my speakers in terms of allowing all types of music to be fully expressed. with the 2a3 we are talking maybe 60-70% of the music is able to be fully renedered without being aware of something missing.

now that i've been back listening to the dart's for a week i can tell what i'm missing compared to the 2a3's. but also what i'm gaining. and i'm just coming to terms on how that makes me feel.

That’s kind of what I expected Mike. I will be surprised if you can live with the 2A3 amps long-term. I know I could never live with a couple watts of power and the reduction in scale, bass power, and control that comes with that.

I like to play my music at what I call realistic levels and that’s just not going to happen with a couple of watts and my speakers. Really, it’s not going to happen with most speakers outside of horns. Hell, I noticed a big difference when I switched from the 90-100 watt Jadis to a 200+ watt SS amp even though we are only talking about a difference of 3dB in sound output. There was an increase in the scale of the soundstage and the feeling of greater control with added bass extension.

2-3 watts is 2-3 watts no matter how you slice the onion. They might be the most incredible 2-3 watts you have ever heard, but I don’t believe they will be satisfying over the long-term unless you quit listening to jazz, rock, and most classical music so you can play something that is in the comfort zone of the amps.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

not every watt is created equal.

after writing about the differences between the 2a3's and the dart......i just had to switch back to the 2a3's.

i moved my chair up 10". and listening to a Mozart Volin Concerto, i'm missing nothing compared to the dart, and what i'm getting is this completely open window into the music which my soul needs.

the world is a better place with the 2a3's. maybe it's only one corner of the musical world. but it's better.

i just played this on the dart, and the 2a3's have only been on for an hour or so, but Holy Guacamole it's beautiful.

 

[jazdoc]

Thanks for the update Mike.

Are you running the amp single ended or still using the Zeel connector? Just wondering how you think that might be affecting the sound? Might be fun to try driving with a single ended pre amp...hint, hint ;-)

 

[DEV]

Hi Mike,

interesting! and thanks for the follow ups.

What you write in relation to differences I also can relate to when I was doing amp evalutions with my speakers, I heard my speakers with tube amps and after that there were sonics preferences that I prefered which never left my mind during my time listening to different solid state amps.

Tube amps, mind you not just any tube amps offer differences that no solid state I have listened to in my system can.

I'm with Jazdoc, next will be to pair them up with a tube pre and run single ended IC's. I suppose easier said than done because you will have to contend with IC's, phono etc.

How far off the back wall are your speakers positioned currently along with distance from tweeter to tweeter and how far are you sitting from them, your ears.

 

[mep]

Watts may not be created equal, but after the watts are created, they are certainly equal in power. P=IxE no matter how you slice up the equation. Tubes make their watts with low current and high voltage. SS make their watts with high current and low voltage. So even if you have a 3 watt amp with the power supply the size of bowling alley, the amp can still only put out 3 watts. If you have speakers that are 89dB efficient, that means you can’t quite get to 95dB before you run out of power-and that’s at one meter from your speaker. Aside from Tim and his computer desk/stereo system, I don’t know anyone that sits 3’ from their speakers. And of course that means that the level of sound will go down as you move further back from the speakers (unless of course you are Frank and then your sound level never varies no matter how far away or how close you are to the speakers). Unless you have horn speakers or you like to listen to your music at very low levels, you will be confined in the types of music you can listen to with flea power amps without driving them into perpetual clipping.

 

[fas42]

And of course that means that the level of sound will go down as you move further back from the speakers (unless of course you are Frank and then your sound level never varies no matter how far away or how close you are to the speakers). Unless you have horn speakers or you like to listen to your music at very low levels, you will be confined in the types of music you can listen to with flea power amps without driving them into perpetual clipping.

Just to clarify, of course the sound level will vary as far as a sound meter is concerned as you move closer to or further away from speakers. But, subjectively, when a system is working well, it doesn't register on the ear/brain so much as getting louder, but rather that the sensation of sound is more intense. This is because your body has an inbuilt automatic sound compression mechanism that allows you to nicely deal with real life changes in volume. Try an experiment with a real piano being played vigorously by someone good: the dynamics will be apparent from quite a distance away, but as you approach the real instrument the sensation you experience is more that of the sound being more dynamic, filling the space that your ears tune into, rather than getting louder, being more in your face in the way that a typical hifi does ...

That's what you need to aim to get a system to sound like, and there is no reason that a very lowly powered amp driving very efficient speakers can't do an excellent job of that ...

FRank

 

[Ron Party]

Watts may not be created equal, but after the watts are created, they are certainly equal in power. P=IxE no matter how you slice up the equation. Tubes make their watts with low current and high voltage. SS make their watts with high current and low voltage. So even if you have a 3 watt amp with the power supply the size of bowling alley, the amp can still only put out 3 watts. If you have speakers that are 89dB efficient, that means you can't quite get to 95dB before you run out of power-and that's at one meter from your speaker. Aside from Tim and his computer desk/stereo system, I don't know anyone that sits 3' from their speakers. And of course that means that the level of sound will go down as you move further back from the speakers (unless of course you are Frank and then your sound level never varies no matter how far away or how close you are to the speakers). Unless you have horn speakers or you like to listen to your music at very low levels, you will be confined in the types of music you can listen to with flea power amps without driving them into perpetual clipping.

Exactly. I've posted about this before. The math doesn't lie. One necessarily must listen to music at lower volumes, particularly music with higher crest factors.

 

[garylkoh]

If you have speakers that are 89dB efficient, that means you can’t quite get to 95dB before you run out of power-and that’s at one meter from your speaker.

Speakers are measured at 1m, so a 89dB sensitive (not efficient) speaker will be 83dB at 2m and 77dB at 4m. Where Mike is sitting from his speakers with the dart, the amplifiers will run out of puff at 83dB. That may be why moving forward sounds better, but I thought a little less coherent. The individual drivers don't have time to get together to boogie at 10' and I didn't like that near-field position.

However, a line source that is 89dB at 1m will be 83dB efficient at 4m, so the amplifiers won't run out of power until 89dB

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Speakers are measured at 1m, so a 89dB sensitive (not efficient) speaker will be 83dB at 2m and 77dB at 4m. Where Mike is sitting from his speakers with the dart, the amplifiers will run out of puff at 83dB. That may be why moving forward sounds better, but I thought a little less coherent. The individual drivers don't have time to get together to boogie at 10' and I didn't like that near-field position.

However, a line source that is 89dB at 1m will be 83dB efficient at 4m, so the amplifiers won't run out of power until 89dB

my speakers are 93db, 6 ohm. and the 2a3's only have to power the tweeter and mid-ranges since the subwoofer is active. so for the majority of music i play there is more than enough 'puff'.

as far as sitting position, the closer position for the 2a3's is 118" from my ears to the tweeters, and exactly on the point of the equalateral triangle. personally, i think that this is plenty of distance for the drivers to be coherent. i know that is the recommended position from the speaker designer....and typical of many rooms where these speakers are used. there is a smaller sweet spot at that distance than farther back. and likely my toe-in could be slightly better for that spot than i have it set up for the darTZeel.

Gary; you and Teck heard the 2a3's with brand new (1 hour on them) driver tubes, and only about 40 hours on the amps. the amps have openned up and increased dynamics by a signifiicant degree since then.

no doubt that there are limitations to these amps in my system.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,

interesting! and thanks for the follow ups.

What you write in relation to differences I also can relate to when I was doing amp evalutions with my speakers, I heard my speakers with tube amps and after that there were sonics preferences that I prefered which never left my mind during my time listening to different solid state amps.

Tube amps, mind you not just any tube amps offer differences that no solid state I have listened to in my system can.

I'm with Jazdoc, next will be to pair them up with a tube pre and run single ended IC's. I suppose easier said than done because you will have to contend with IC's, phono etc.

How far off the back wall are your speakers positioned currently along with distance from tweeter to tweeter and how far are you sitting from them, your ears.

David,

118" from tweeter to tweeter, and 118" from tweeter to ears when in 2a3 sitting position.

i am using the 'zeel' BNC interconnects between my dart pre and my 2a3's. i had the amp builder install the BNC connectors and use a 50ohm resistor to work with my dart pre. the amp builder commented that the overall performance improved when he changed from the RCA 75ohm interface to the BNC 50 ohm interface in terms of imaging and precision. OTOH i did lose some gain when it was changed to 50 ohm....which is now an issue.

btw; the BNC's are single ended just like RCA's; it's simply a different connector and impedence.

 

[garylkoh]

my speakers are 93db, 6 ohm. and the 2a3's only have to power the tweeter and mid-ranges since the subwoofer is active. so for the majority of music i play there is more than enough 'puff'.

as far as sitting position, the closer position for the 2a3's is 118" from my ears to the tweeters, and exactly on the point of the equalateral triangle. personally, i think that this is plenty of distance for the drivers to be coherent. i know that is the recommended position from the speaker designer....and typical of many rooms where these speakers are used. there is a smaller sweet spot at that distance than farther back. and likely my toe-in could be slightly better for that spot than i have it set up for the darTZeel.

Gary; you and Teck heard the 2a3's with brand new (1 hour on them) driver tubes, and only about 40 hours on the amps. the amps have openned up and increased dynamics by a signifiicant degree since then.

no doubt that there are limitations to these amps in my system.

Mike, my post was in response to Mark's post. Your speakers have active woofers, so I suspect need less power (actually Mark's speakers also have active woofers). Efficiency and sensitivity are two different things. There are limitations to everything - as long as the limitations are outside of what we expect, we can all be happy.

I may find your speakers less coherent because I'm a shorty. When I sit at 10' the tweeters are slightly above my ears. This means that the delta of distance between the bottom woofer and my ears and the top woofers is too great. Whereas for a taller person, the tweeters would be exactly at ear height and the bottom woofer and the top woofer is the same distance from his ear.

I've got to find some time to come on over and listen again now that the 2a3's are well run-in.

 

[fas42]

Efficiency and sensitivity are two different things. There are limitations to everything - as long as the limitations are outside of what we expect, we can all be happy.

Gary, you're confusing me, appearing to differentiate between efficiency and sensitivity of speakers; as far as I was aware the number is what's all important, whatever you call it -- care to clarify what you understand to be the difference here?

Thanks,
Frank

 

[garylkoh]

Gary, you're confusing me, appearing to differentiate between efficiency and sensitivity of speakers; as far as I was aware the number is what's all important, whatever you call it -- care to clarify what you understand to be the difference here?

Thanks,
Frank

I've posted it before. I'm surprised that you didn't know this - but John Atkinson says it far better than I could:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/measuring-loudspeakers-part-one-page-3

 

[fas42]

You learn something new every day; I was aware of the significance of the speaker's impedance when specifying the figures, and the fact that depending on where the figures came from that either the /1W or /2.83V value would be given, but not aware that the words "efficiency" or "sensitivity" were firmly tied to these two different measurement parameters. It makes sense of course, and it's good that there is a strict definition. Of course, it it often doesn't help when a manufacturer quotes something like 90dB with respect to a speaker, you frequently aren't quite sure what he does mean ...

Thanks for that, Gary ....

Frank

 

[c1ferrari]

Classic

“If the first watt sucks, why continue?”

Steve Deckert- http://www.decware.com/paper43.htm