First listen to WAMM from TAS

[slcaudiophile]

I just don't understand the criticisms for building this speaker, or criticism of the cost. If someone is as passionate about reproducing music as Dave Wilson who has kept his passion alive for decades, why criticise him for working (for years) on his very best effort, combining all he has learned, with the latest measurement and reproduction technologies toward achieving what audiophiles all claim to want—the sound of live music in your room?

In my opinion, these kinds of criticisms come from folks who have never known the joy of being totally immersed in solving a problem or being completely consumed by the creative process. Do you criticise the great composers for writing their greatest symphonies? Do you criticise Ferarri or Lamborgini? Would you have been critical of Michaelangelo?

While a WAMM may not be the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, with respect to the manifestation of passion and creativity of the individual I cannot judge one as greater than the other.

thanks for the post and comments. i didn't realize that post would cause such discussion.

as i mention any speaker manufacture can make an speaker that cost a lot of money. that is perhaps the easiest thing to do. what is truly innovative and interesting is when a speaker manufacture designs a speaker via technology and design that does not cost $650K and sounds like real music. that is my point and criticism. building a 7' speaker and sticking a nice price tag on it ... ok, so what is new about that? if Wilson used their economies of scale to build a speaker that sounds great ... that would be interesting ... that would be innovative ... that would get my attention.

these comparisons of the Porsche 918, etc. are moot. i own a 997 911 4S. it is my daily driver. the 918 is like a unicorn simply because of what Porsche did to build that car. the technology in the 918 is amazing. it is shocking what that car can do. the 918 is original from the ground up, not only in parts but also in technology. indeed, it is wicked fast and sounds amazing and has more mechanical grip then anything on the planet with 4 wheels but lots of car can go. Porsche developed new materials, technology, manufacturing processes, etc. to push the boundary of what can be done. the hybrid motor with those heavy batteries in conjunction with a v8 to produce 770 hp all while keeping the weight down to super car levels and making the power usable is what is so profound about that car. they singly handily changed what was previously thought impossible in the 918. that is a feat and that is why that car costs what it costs. i can go on an on ... but the 918 is very special. the analogy of the 918 to a 7' Wilson audio speaker is not even the same game. im sure Wilson spent lots of time to make a 7' speaker. but is there anything that is truly original or innovative about it? do you have other manufactures buying it and taking it apart to understand the technology?

and Michelangelo? im not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

[microstrip]

(...) No need to respond to that as I already know the answer, but I must confess I really do find it troubling.

IMHO it is the main problem, people get troubled by the WAMM price and then must find reasons to justify their trouble ...

If those who can afford to buy it find its sounds significantly better than others costing half its price, in high-end terms it is a bargain!

 

[RogerD]

let's get real here...$650,000 x 50 = $32,500,000

Ok what part of 32 million is his cost 5,000,000? Wilson thinks he has developed a speaker that jumps the highest bar by leaps.
He also realises that there are 50 buyers that the money doesn't matter. That's just the state of the high end today,for better or worse.

 

[microstrip]

(...) and Michelangelo? im not sure what that has to do with anything.

A lot more than we can think, IMHO. I know it is a source of debate and disagreement, but I do not consider that in high-end sound reproduction the artistic phase ends in the recording.

But yes, you have a point, artists usually do not produce 50 (or 70, as I have also read) copies of their best artworks...

 

[slcaudiophile]

the markup on speakers from manufacture to dealers is ~ 50%, say 40% to be safe. so if they are making 70 pairs and sell them all that will likely bring in ~ $20.5M in gross revenue. usually the cost markup at the manufacture level is ~ 50% (it could even be higher ... but this includes materials, R&D, marketing costs, fixed and variable costs, etc.) so they will net over $10M in profit at least for those 70 pairs. whatever i think about their speakers I cannot fault their business sense at all.

 

[LL21]

1. I have spoken with 4 long-in-the-tooth audiophiles and dealers who prefer the original WAMM to the current XLF by a good margin. We're talking a 30+ year old speaker vs the company's flagship up until the new WAMM.

2. If the new WAMM follows that precedent, then that is a tremendous statement.

3. If DW wants to charge $1 or $1M, its his company and he can do what he pleases...good for him...and i would not be surprised if all 70 units are eventually taken up by the market who are prepared to pay and enjoy another milestone speaker by DW.

4. The concept of trying to build a WAMM and make it affordable to everyman is an oxymoron. The point of building an all-out-performance car, plane, speaker is that you remove cost as a barrier, and instead design something at any cost which breaches as many performance thresholds as possible. The minute you try to take that same exact state of the art performance and develop it for a fraction to bring it to everyday cost levels, inevitably there are compromises forced upon design by that massive cost reduction. Formula 1 car into a $10,000 car. That's the point of all-out-assault in any field.

5. Yes, OVER TIME, you can develop more cost-effective ways to reproduce what the original state of art design originally did...but that is only after you've done the original SOTA design, exhausting every known avenue and cost to build the best possible design.

 

[microstrip]

the markup on speakers from manufacture to dealers is ~ 50%, say 40% to be safe. so if they are making 70 pairs and sell them all that will likely bring in ~ $20.5M in gross revenue. usually the cost markup at the manufacture level is ~ 50% (it could even be higher ... but this includes materials, R&D, marketing costs, fixed and variable costs, etc.) so they will net over $10M in profit at least for those 70 pairs. whatever i think about their speakers I cannot fault their business sense at all.

We can only congratulate a company that has been working hard and with great excellence along decades, producing great speakers that a significant number of audiophiles appreciate and prefer. Its is astonishing that Wilson Audio managed to reach such as unbelievable dream. As can be expected, all Wilson owners and lovers feel they were somewhere part of the push toward this dream.

 

[Steve Williams]

We can only congratulate a company that has been working hard and with great excellence along decades, producing great speakers that a significant number of audiophiles appreciate and prefer. Its is astonishing that Wilson Audio managed to reach such as unbelievable dream. As can be expected, all Wilson owners and lovers feel they were somewhere part of the push toward this dream.

totally agree

For my ears and listening pleasure over the past 22 years as a Wilson ownerI can only sing praise to Dave for helping to enhance my love of the hobby

 

[PeterA]

For the cost of this speaker, I and 643 of my closest friends could attend a lot of live concerts.

I do get this concept of building a "reference" cost be darned speaker but I don't get it either. I get it because I'm sure it was fun for Dave to do it. But as another poster suggested, why not take Dave's 30 or 40 years of experience of designing and building loudspeakers and see what he can create that mere humans could afford. And I'm not talking about a $10,000 plus loudspeaker. If he has any interest in bringing new folks into the world of more accurately reproduced music (he clearly does not), that would be a great boon to the industry rather than to just his pockets and pride.

No need to respond to that as I already know the answer, but I must confess I really do find it troubling.

I hope you are not suggesting that others should dictate to Dave Wilson what he should do with his talents. I must confess that I would really find that troubling.

 

[DaveyF]

let's get real here...$650,000 x 50 = $32,500,000

Ok what part of 32 million is his cost 5,000,000? Wilson thinks he has developed a speaker that jumps the highest bar by leaps.
He also realises that there are 50 buyers that the money doesn't matter. That's just the state of the high end today,for better or worse.

What I am still questioning is why DW charges ONLY $650K for this speaker....why not $6.5M or better still $65M! Why does he think that his razor thin market will accept a price of $650K and might not- or will not, accept the other two numbers???
BTW, this applies to most manufacturer's of ultra luxury items that appeal to the 1%. What is the justification for the pricing.....inquiring minds and all that, LOL. Personally, I believe these guys are probably selling themselves very short!!

 

[853guy]

let's get real here...$650,000 x 50 = $32,500,000

Ok what part of 32 million is his cost 5,000,000? Wilson thinks he has developed a speaker that jumps the highest bar by leaps.
He also realises that there are 50 buyers that the money doesn't matter. That's just the state of the high end today,for better or worse.

Hi RogerD,

I think perhaps it’s helpful to consider that in the last three years Ferrari and Porsche both released limited edition halo cars with price tags four to five-times higher than their existing flagship production models.

I think part of the reason the supercar buying public are not only willing to pay the money for the privilege, but in many cases, pay over and above the asking price comes down to the fact that both Ferrari and Porsche have an incredible track record of producing vehicles across the range that deliver a driving experience commensurate with the asking price. A 458 or GT3 still offers an incredible amount of usable performance, even given they cost less than a quarter of the LaFerrari and 918.

In Wilson’s case, it’s not hard to see a similar methodology. Create products across the range ($15K for a Sabrina, $200K for an XLF) that are widely considered to be some of the best in their respective price range and build on that consistency and integrity with a never-before seen flagship using a little bit of cutting edge technology and a lot of reputation.

Were they a new kid on the block whose first-ever product was a $650K speaker filled with acronyms and in-house monikers, then I think it would be more than fair to ask serious questions. But as it is, like you say, $650K is part-and-parcel of the high end now. I’m not sure it’ll be reverting back any time soon.

 

[RogerD]

What I am still questioning is why DW charges ONLY $650K for this speaker....why not $6.5M or better still $65M! Why does he think that his razor thin market will accept a price of $650K and might not- or will not, accept the other two numbers???
BTW, this applies to most manufacturer's of ultra luxury items that appeal to the 1%. What is the justification for the pricing.....inquiring minds and all that, LOL. Personally, I believe these guys are probably selling themselves very short!!

I think what most do not realize is that when a leader in the industry prices a product at a higher level than most previous products other manufacturers will raise prices at even the parts level. Even if Wilson filters down the technology.future products will be priced at the new paradigm.So the market becomes a luxury and is more exclusive. The result is many buyers are forced to compromise or become more astute in their purchases. But let's not kid ourselves,this path is negative for the industry.IMHO

 

[RogerD]

Hi RogerD,

I think perhaps it’s helpful to consider that in the last three years Ferrari and Porsche both released limited edition halo cars with price tags four to five-times higher than their existing flagship production models.

I think part of the reason the supercar buying public are not only willing to pay the money for the privilege, but in many cases, pay over and above the asking price comes down to the fact that both Ferrari and Porsche have an incredible track record of producing vehicles across the range that deliver a driving experience commensurate with the asking price. A 458 or GT3 still offers an incredible amount of usable performance, even given they cost less than a quarter of the LaFerrari and 918.

In Wilson’s case, it’s not hard to see a similar methodology. Create products across the range ($15K for a Sabrina, $200K for an XLF) that are widely considered to be some of the best in their respective price range and build on that consistency and integrity with a never-before seen flagship using a little bit of cutting edge technology and a lot of reputation.

Were they a new kid on the block whose first-ever product was a $650K speaker filled with acronyms and in-house monikers, then I think it would be more than fair to ask serious questions. But as it is, like you say, $650K is part-and-parcel of the high end now. I’m not sure it’ll be reverting back any time soon.

Well the latest Ferrari came out at 500k and resales are going @ 3 times that. Many owners are now collectors and now drive these less and less. Let's not forget when governments print vast amounts of money, the result will be asset inflation. This can be seen in high end audio as well. A vicious circle.

 

[slcaudiophile]

Hi RogerD,

I think perhaps it’s helpful to consider that in the last three years Ferrari and Porsche both released limited edition halo cars with price tags four to five-times higher than their existing flagship production models.

I think part of the reason the supercar buying public are not only willing to pay the money for the privilege, but in many cases, pay over and above the asking price comes down to the fact that both Ferrari and Porsche have an incredible track record of producing vehicles across the range that deliver a driving experience commensurate with the asking price. A 458 or GT3 still offers an incredible amount of usable performance, even given they cost less than a quarter of the LaFerrari and 918.

In Wilson’s case, it’s not hard to see a similar methodology. Create products across the range ($15K for a Sabrina, $200K for an XLF) that are widely considered to be some of the best in their respective price range and build on that consistency and integrity with a never-before seen flagship using a little bit of cutting edge technology and a lot of reputation.

Were they a new kid on the block whose first-ever product was a $650K speaker filled with acronyms and in-house monikers, then I think it would be more than fair to ask serious questions. But as it is, like you say, $650K is part-and-parcel of the high end now. I’m not sure it’ll be reverting back any time soon.

wrong! the reason the 997/991 GT3 and GT3RS (hell ... even the GT4) can demand a premium and inflate in value is due to basic supply / demand. you can buy a new 991.2 911 that will come awful close to the performance of the 991 GT3 for about $25K less list. wilson audio speakers DO NOT inflate in value.

 

[FrantzM]

I think what most do not realize is that when a leader in the industry prices a product at a higher level than most previous products other manufacturers will raise prices at even the parts level. Even if Wilson filters down the technology.future products will be priced at the new paradigm.So the market becomes a luxury and is more exclusive. The result is many buyers are forced to compromise or become more astute in their purchases. But let's not kid ourselves,this path is negative for the industry.IMHO

Well the latest Ferrari came out at 500k and resales are going @ 3 times that. Many owners are now collectors and now drive these less and less. Let's not forget when governments print vast amounts of money, the result will be asset inflation. This can be seen in high end audio as well. A vicious circle.

I won't add anything... New Year Resolution ...

 

[Steve Williams]

I won't add anything... New Year Resolution ...

Actually you just did. Just broke your resolution

 

[FrantzM]

I think what most do not realize is that when a leader in the industry prices a product at a higher level than most previous products other manufacturers will raise prices at even the parts level. Even if Wilson filters down the technology.future products will be priced at the new paradigm.So the market becomes a luxury and is more exclusive. The result is many buyers are forced to compromise or become more astute in their purchases. But let's not kid ourselves,this path is negative for the industry.IMHO

Well the latest Ferrari came out at 500k and resales are going @ 3 times that. Many owners are now collectors and now drive these less and less. Let's not forget when governments print vast amounts of money, the result will be asset inflation. This can be seen in high end audio as well. A vicious circle.

Actually you just did. Just broke your resolution

Not Fair Steve !!

Happy Holidays !

 

[microstrip]

I won't add anything... New Year Resolution ...

Actually you just did. Just broke your resolution

No, Frantz did not break it. He did not add anything new - we go through the same list of old arguments every time we debate an expensive item.

Do you remember the Lamborgini's and Ferrari's in the Magico Ultimate thread?

Happy New Year!

 

[DaveyF]

I went to our local car show on Friday. There i came across the amazing new Ford GT. The Ford rep told me it was offered at $450K and that 500 units were produced. All were sold out in a few days! To that, in order to be even considered for a purchase of this vehicle, Ford had to vet you via an online process. I asked the rep if they were going to be releasing another round of these amazing vehicles. No plans, as the exercise ( her words not mine) was now completed! What do we gather from this exercise....LOL!!
Oh, the previous version Ford GT was sold initially to a small number of 'friends' of Ford....at an average price of $100K. Today, assuming you could source one...it will cost you well over $400K!! I like these 'exercises'.
BTW, looking at the tech in this new Ford GT and then thinking ( that's all one can do) of the tech in the new Wilson Wamm......

 

[RogerD]

No, Frantz did not break it. He did not add anything new - we go through the same list of old arguments every time we debate an expensive item.

Do you remember the Lamborgini's and Ferrari's in the Magico Ultimate thread?

Happy New Year!

But does a 20k or 30k intergrated amplifier sound that much better than the same unit manufactured by the same vendor of 20 years ago? That unit sold for a fraction of today's price. I could never replace my system for 5 times the cost and I'm not giving that much up. Technology should have benefits to the consumer, that is not necessarily the case in the high end audio realm. I'm very satisfied though, in a minority I would guess.