Esoteric to Bricasti?

[matthias]

The Bricasti M19 converts DSD to PCM before conversion to analogue. I would therefore not consider it. The M21 does not accept the DSD bitstream via I2S over HDMI and therefore can't be used to play SACD's.

From the M19 manual:

SACD and DSD playback and the M19
When playing a SACD, when using the AES or SPDIF outputs the DSD playback with the M19 is done via DoP, ,
and Native via the I2S.. The M19 does not employ and sample rate conversion or up-sampling of the data streams
and passes the original sample rate. The only processing done is for creating the DoP format for DSD out the AES
and creating the serial data streams for AES and SPDIF.
The M19 maintains and preserves native formats on the disk;.when playing a CD the output will be 44.1k 16bits,
when playing an SACD the output can be DSD 64 or if the CD layer is selected it will be 44.1. These data streams
are passed directly to the connected DAC for conversion.

I2S Output on the M19
The M19 has a proprietary implementation of I2S. There is no “standard” for the use of I2S outside the confines of
a product as its intended use is for interconnecting of PCBs inside of a product. In our implantation, we use an RJ45
connector and it will mate to one of our DACs if it is fitted with the same RJ45 connector I2S option. It should be
noted that this interface is intended for use with our products and is not meant for general use with other products;
the AES and SPDIF are there to support other manufacturer’s products as they are defined standard and will work
with any product that supports these standards.

The I2S input is now listed as an option for all new Bricasti DACs, and as an upgrade path for previous customers as well.

 

[Macattack]

Yep. I also read what it said at the Bricasti website. Again,, the issue I raised is that when the DSD signal gets to a Bricasti DAC via their proprietary connection it is converted to PCM, not directly to analogue like several other DAC’s I listed.

I don’t think that is totally correct. My M21 will ‘see’ the DoP signal and route it to the DSD DAC.

I have used an AES output from my Antipodes server into my M21 DAC. That signal is packaged as DOP and plays via my M21 at DSD64.

But I am not going to quibble about it further as I can’t explain fully what is happening.

 

[matthias]

It seems @Cellcbern deleted the last two posts

 

[Cellcbern]

It seems @Cellcbern deleted the last two posts

Yes, because in my comments I confused the M19 and M21 which are transports, with Bricasti DAC’s. My question remains as to whether or not the Bricasti DAC’s convert the DSD bitstream from SACD’s to PCM or directly to analogue like several other DAC’s I listed.

 

[matthias]

Yes, because in my comments I confused the M19 and M21 which are transports, with Bricasti DAC’s. My question remains as to whether or not the Bricasti DAC’s convert the DSD bitstream from SACD’s to PCM or directly to analogue like several other DAC’s I listed.

The M19 is a CD/SACD transport, the M21 is a DAC with three different D to A converters.
AFAIK, there is no such thing as conversion from DSD to PCM in a Bricasti DAC. The DSD from SACDs is converted directly from DSD to analog.

 

[Macattack]

One of the M21 D to A circuits only processs native bitstream data. It happens automatically when the unit ‘sees’ a bitstream and moves to either the Sigma Delta or FPG D to A (depending on the users setting) when a PCM stream is detected.

 

[Cellcbern]

The M19 is a CD/SACD transport, the M21 is a DAC with three different D to A converters.
AFAIK, there is no such thing as conversion from DSD to PCM in a Bricasti DAC. The DSD from SACDs is converted directly from DSD to analog.

I will take your word for it. The explanation from the M21 users manual (below) is not easy to understand, and is what gave me the impression that it was DSD via PCM. It focuses on DSD computer files and says little about SACD playback which was the focus of my interest and comments.

"DSD playback and the M21
DSD playback with the M21 is done via DoP and as such can be read with any input, but most common is the USB. DoP is DSD over PCM and for DSD 64 is the 1 data bit stream embedded in a 176.4k 16 bit PCM data stream with the extra 8 bits out of the 24 bits used for identifying that it is DSD not PCM. This is true DSD and not PCM
conversion. When using a computer audio setup, the media player should be set to send out the DSD as DoP, the M21 will see that as 176.4k pcm for DSD 64fs or 352.8k for DSD 128fs, read the data header and see that it is actually DSD and unpack the data in our digital signal processor as the original DSD data, and send it out to the DAC for conversion to analog..."

 

[Macattack]

I write this only to try and complete the Bricasti portion of the question the OP asked and clarify portions of this thread.

I cannot fully explain the technical nuances but the section of the manual copied above only tells part of the M21 story. The M21 has 3 DACs in it.

The delivery method for DSD using any of the NON - USB inputs is DoP. It is still DSD. The unit will recognize that stream and send that 1bit signal to the DSD DAC. The USER can choose to have that signal sent to the Sigma Delta DAC as well.

If the USB input is used, the M21 simply accepts the 1 bit signal and sends it again either to the DSD DAC or the Sigma Delta DAC depending on the user’s choice.

iIf the user chooses to set the NDSD setting to NDSD-PCM there is clearly a conversion of the 1 bit stream to PCM. But it is a choice.

M19 Transport

The manual for this new product clearly states it only passes the native signal of the source disk. 16/44.1 for CDs and DSD64 from SACDs.

It will vary the delivery method of DSD depending on the output chosen. DSD over DoP for the AES or the SPDIF outputs. Native DSD if the proprietary I2S connection is used with a Bricasti only DAC that is capable.

Conclusion : The Bricasti M19 Transport will send the DSD over DoP signal via AES or SPDIF to any DAC for further conversion by that DAC.

 

[SOS]

We have been demoing the new Bricasti M19 transport for about a week and it has surpassed all my expectations. I'm not even using the new I2S connection yet but will have my M12 updated early in the new year. It is truly another Bricasti masterpiece. We brought it over to a good customer several days ago and he said, "I'll take one!" If you can get one to hear I strongly recommend calling your Bricasti dealer to audition.

(Dealer disclaimer)

 

[matthias]

I'm not even using the new I2S connection yet but will have my M12 updated early in the new year.

AFAIK, either I2S OR the Streamer/Network/LAN input may be installed. Both options are not available together.

 

[SOS]

Both options are not available together

I'm told they will be sometime in the 1st Q 2024

 

[matthias]

I'm told they will be sometime in the 1st Q 2024

How that, will Bricasti launch a new MDx board with I2S input?
Thx

 

[Cutlr7]

I'm told they will be sometime in the 1st Q 2024

Same thing I heard....just purchased an M12 demo unit and plan to send it back in early 24 to have the display updated and the new IS2 connection for the m19 which I plan to get next year.....sounds amazing over AES.....

 

[SOS]

My understanding is they will use original LAN board and add the IS2 above or to the side. They gave me the IS2 board so I can change out and have a listen, very simple. Our units will have to go back to Bricasti so they can drill out another port on the back panel. Luckily I'm less than 30 minutes from the factory.
Personally I like the original display over their current ones but that's just me.

 

[Cutlr7]

My understanding is they will use original LAN board and add the IS2 above or to the side. They gave me the IS2 board so I can change out and have a listen, very simple. Our units will have to go back to Bricasti so they can drill out another port on the back panel. Luckily I'm less than 30 minutes from the factory.
Personally I like the original display over their current ones but that's just me.

I want the displays to match ....and I am in no rush to get the m19....my funds need a good refresh haha

 

[SCAudiophile]

If vinyl and R2R is not old school, I do not know what is.

No need to apologize to the "must be analogue club" to get SOTA sound. That is because it can, and does sound really good.

Amen,....well said. The laughable part is some think we should.

 

[SOS]

My M12 now has been updated with dual ports, an I2S super-performance to be used with the new Bricasti M19 transport and also an Ethernet connection for streaming. Took about 1-1/2 hours to complete, see attached video of the CNC machine (still trying to upload video). at work at the Bricasti factory. A HUGE thank you goes out to Joe and all the guys & gals at the factory, they are the BEST!

 

[Cutlr7]

My M12 now has been updated with dual ports, an I2S super-performance to be used with the new Bricasti M19 transport and also an Ethernet connection for streaming. Took about 1-1/2 hours to complete, see attached video of the CNC machine (still trying to upload video). at work at the Bricasti factory. A HUGE thank you goes out to Joe and all the guys & gals at the factory, they are the BEST!

Beautiful! My m21 shipped today, so I am looking forward to hearing it. With that said, how does the m19 sound now that it's hooked up i2S?

 

[SOS]

how does the m19 sound now that it's hooked up i2S?

Don't know yet, looooong day, it took me extra time to get to the factory and back b/c of a snow storm then just in from 4th time out shoveling. Will keep you posted once I can relax and have a listen.

 

[SOS]

The music now gains in the inner detail, and it sounds spotlessly clean with lots of space making the stage wide and deep combined with a beautiful powerful and layered soundstage. Yes, this with an Audiomica Andra Reference Ethernet cable in place of the suppled IS2 cable. From my understanding an IS2 cable should be short and well shielded, which the Audiomica cable is.

The M19 transport has bettered streaming but still falls a bit short vs my analog rig. But again, this is saying a LOT. I love the M19 to say the least.

(Dealer disclaimer)