EQ Wars?

[Phelonious Ponk]

A conversation with mep, about an old Wallflowers album, got me to thinking about this. I make "Learning Lists" all the time, of songs I'm working on with the band, or solo, or simply listening to in search of possible arrangements for either of those performance situations. I play along with them at home, listen to them on my iPhone at work, and burn CDs to listen to them in the car, so I can get the structure, lyrics, harmonies, etc, into my old head.

These play lists are often a mix of older recordings and newer, and/or remastered recordings. As one would expect, some of the newer recordings are much louder than the older ones (though it's not as common and severe as one would think), and will send me scrambling for the volume knob when they come on. But here's the intersting part; many of them, while loud, still sound good. Is there a lot of dynamics? No, but there isn't a lot of dynamics in a lot of popular studio recordings, and many of these loud modern recordings - actually the overwhelming majority of them in the genres I listen to -- are clean and quiet and as just plain good-sounding as the older recordings in every other way.

A good example, if any of you have it to listen to, is "Sea of Heartbreak," from Rosanne Cash's album "The List." I have to turn it down when it comes on in my learning list and/or turn the next song up when it's over. Its LOUDNESS is obvious. But other than the fact that the dominant instruments and voices are at pretty much the same level, it sounds good. As good as most studio recordings, better than many.

I'm not trying to say I don't want my dynamic range back, but I'm not sure that's really the main problem with contemporary masters and remasters, unless loudness is pushed into distortion. Bad EQ? Something else?

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Hi Tim,

When we had our mixing lab sessions at Full Sail we were all put on identical analog boards with identical outboard gear. We were then given the same raw MDR tapes to mix with. All six of us were to mix the 16 tracks into two within the time limit. We then played all versions on the monitors. I gotta say, each mix was totally different from all the others and not one was actually bad. You could however pick up on the different perspectives of the people mixing. I was the only one that wasn't a musician and it showed as my mixes were from a 10th row audience member's perspective while the others were centered around the instruments they played. If you think about it, none were wrong either since each of us was just going by what sounded normal to us based on our own collective experiences. So while I had neat soundstaging, clear vocals and wide dynamics due to my film and video slant, others had KILLER guitars, basses, and drums that I really, really liked. Screw the sound staging, these guys rocked it.

I guess my point is that whatever we get our hands on, well, they are what they are. They are a collection of a whole lot of human judgement calls and that includes everything from mic placement to tracking to mixing on to mastering and mass production. It's a lot more than EQ or Compressors. In the end these are all just tools and it is the human element that counts most just as a guitar is only as good as the person playing it. That in a nutshell was my takeaway from the whole experience.

 

[Bruce B]

Hi Tim,

When we had our mixing lab sessions at Full Sail we were all put on identical analog boards with identical outboard gear. We were then given the same raw MDR tapes to mix with. All six of us were to mix the 16 tracks into two within the time limit. We then played all versions on the monitors. I gotta say, each mix was totally different from all the others and not one was actually bad. You could however pick up on the different perspectives of the people mixing. I was the only one that wasn't a musician and it showed as my mixes were from a 10th row audience member's perspective while the others were centered around the instruments they played. If you think about it, none were wrong either since each of us was just going by what sounded normal to us based on our own collective experiences. So while I had neat soundstaging, clear vocals and wide dynamics due to my film and video slant, others had KILLER guitars, basses, and drums that I really, really liked. Screw the sound staging, these guys rocked it.

I guess my point is that whatever we get our hands on, well, they are what they are. They are a collection of a whole lot of human judgement calls and that includes everything from mic placement to tracking to mixing on to mastering and mass production. It's a lot more than EQ or Compressors. In the end these are all just tools and it is the human element that counts most just as a guitar is only as good as the person playing it. That in a nutshell was my takeaway from the whole experience.

+1... great post!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hi Tim,

When we had our mixing lab sessions at Full Sail we were all put on identical analog boards with identical outboard gear. We were then given the same raw MDR tapes to mix with. All six of us were to mix the 16 tracks into two within the time limit. We then played all versions on the monitors. I gotta say, each mix was totally different from all the others and not one was actually bad. You could however pick up on the different perspectives of the people mixing. I was the only one that wasn't a musician and it showed as my mixes were from a 10th row audience member's perspective while the others were centered around the instruments they played. If you think about it, none were wrong either since each of us was just going by what sounded normal to us based on our own collective experiences. So while I had neat soundstaging, clear vocals and wide dynamics due to my film and video slant, others had KILLER guitars, basses, and drums that I really, really liked. Screw the sound staging, these guys rocked it.

I guess my point is that whatever we get our hands on, well, they are what they are. They are a collection of a whole lot of human judgement calls and that includes everything from mic placement to tracking to mixing on to mastering and mass production. It's a lot more than EQ or Compressors. In the end these are all just tools and it is the human element that counts most just as a guitar is only as good as the person playing it. That in a nutshell was my takeaway from the whole experience.

I agree with all of that, Jack. Spot on. But I've been listening a lot lately - across albums from song to song, which is not my normal listening mode. The "loud" material stands out. But you turn it down and a lot of it sounds really good. I'm just wondering if, in many cases, "loudness" really is what people are irritated by.

Tim

 

[Bruce B]

I agree with all of that, Jack. Spot on. But I've been listening a lot lately - across albums from song to song, which is not my normal listening mode. The "loud" material stands out. But you turn it down and a lot of it sounds really good. I'm just wondering if, in many cases, "loudness" really is what people are irritated by.

Tim

Yes, loundess at certain frequencies overdrives the equipment and sometimes it's nasty sounding.

There are many threads over at GearSlutz from people asking how to clip the converters! People need to learn about proper gain staging and compressor/limiter use first, but they instead want the short cut!

 

[JackD201]

I think what people get most irritated by are tonal aberrations particularly boom and sizzle especially if they are incessant. With that out of the way and as far as "loudness" goes, I think it is more the grunge that is brought up along with the quiet sound events rather than the average level or peaks.

When we started doing automation on the SSLs we were shocked at how much better the final mixes were when we were made to take the time to know the pieces and drop (not mute, doing that sounds weird) the levels of the tracks/groups that weren't playing. Imagine listening to a solo with all the ambient noise from all the other tracks going with it. All this before any compression or EQ was applied at all. Noise will always be present so it's always good to be on guard and minimize the damage.

Then again, it really depends on what the artists are going for. All that could be great for a band out to fry your brain. If that is what the listener wants anyway then everybody's happy. For guys like us who like to listen to musicianship having all that grunge keeping us from easily following musical lines is downright irritating. So is the other extreme where everything is buried and you'll have to reach for your cans just to hear what your guy is doing. There's always a happy medium and the good guys are able to find some semblance of balance.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes, loundess at certain frequencies overdrives the equipment and sometimes it's nasty sounding.

There are many threads over at GearSlutz from people asking how to clip the converters! People need to learn about proper gain staging and compressor/limiter use first, but they instead want the short cut!

I get that, but on the other hand, I've run into a lot of music that was clearly compressed, but not distorted. Other than the loss of of dynamic range, it sounded very good. Is there a lot of music out there that is compressed into distortion? Perhaps my taste has kept me away from this sort of thing, but while I've heard many "loud" recordings, I've heard very few that were overdriven.

Tim

 

[Bruce B]

I get that, but on the other hand, I've run into a lot of music that was clearly compressed, but not distorted. Other than the loss of of dynamic range, it sounded very good. Is there a lot of music out there that is compressed into distortion? Perhaps my taste has kept me away from this sort of thing, but while I've heard many "loud" recordings, I've heard very few that were overdriven.

Tim

It's easy to overdrive transformers/equipment with just the EQ. It's all about gain staging. You can have the quietest and most dynamic piece of music, but you can still have nasties by not knowing how to use the equipment properly.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Thanks guys. Good answers. I was hearing these tracks that were obviously "loud" relative to other tracks around them, but they sounded very good. Then there's Bruce's "Magic." I love Bruce. I find that album hard to listen to.

Tim