DSD comparison to PCM.

[Orb]

Thanks Bruce,
how do they compare to some of the other products as I understand they approach DSD in a specific way: http://www.grimmaudio.com/whitepapers/dsd faq.pdf
Bruno did have some interesting views back in 2003/2004 (was from an interview) in the development/implementation of DSD; think you posted in that thread on gearslutz (or another site) Bruce when it came up again in 2010 in a discussion.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Bruce B]

Thanks Bruce,
how do they compare to some of the other products as I understand they approach DSD in a specific way: http://www.grimmaudio.com/whitepapers/dsd faq.pdf
Bruno did have some interesting views back in 2003/2004 (was from an interview) in the development/implementation of DSD; think you posted in that thread on gearslutz (or another site) Bruce when it came up again in 2010 in a discussion.
Cheers
Orb

Well Grimm does not make a DAC. This is an A/D converter. It's the best one I've heard so far.... bar none! Every single tape transfer that I do gets run through the Grimm. Even when I blindly offer files to clients, they always choose DSD..... even after a conversion to PCM!

 

[microstrip]

Well Grimm does not make a DAC. This is an A/D converter. It's the best one I've heard so far.... bar none! Every single tape transfer that I do gets run through the Grimm. Even when I blindly offer files to clients, they always choose DSD..... even after a conversion to PCM!

Bruce,
Do you have an idea of the price of such unit?

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce,
Do you have an idea of the price of such unit?

I think MSRP is around $15k for the AD1 and $1k for the OC1 depending on the Euro exchange rate.

 

[MarinJim]

I think MSRP is around $15k for the AD1 and $1k for the OC1 depending on the Euro exchange rate.

How often do they come out with a new model/version?

 

[tailspn]

They have yet to. The AD-1 has been out for either six or eight years. It's hand built, and they sell only a few each year.

 

[Bruce B]

They have yet to. The AD-1 has been out for either six or eight years. It's hand built, and they sell only a few each year.

Yes, they are built to order... Took a few months to get mine.

 

[opus111]

I spent my hard earned money and time seeking out 2 NOS DACs in the chase of the Holy Grail. It certainly wasn't in these DAC's. I sold one and the other is still sitting in the rack.
As far as I'm concerned, I already have the Holy Grail of DAC's in the MPS-5 and MSB.

That's the reason you didn't find the Holy Grail - you already had it. When you don't hear the difference between how the MSB (multibit) and MPS-5 (S-D) play native RBCD, how can another Holy Grail help you?

 

[opus111]

What do you think of Lynn's article?

I'm almost totally in agreement with both his listening impressions and his analysis of why. Some rather minor differences about his distinctions over feedback vs no feedback and valve vs SS. From what I know, Lynn has heard some (I think three) SS amps he likes the sound of, to my knowledge they weren't all no-feedback designs. But what he says about linearity is pretty much the same as what I've found - that THD measurements do not address the right kind of linearity needed for good sound in audio electronics.

Do you concur with the analogy to non-feedback low powered Class A v A/B feedback...and the criticisms laid at the feet of S-D?

What was missing in what Lynn wrote (or perhaps I skipped past it and need to re-read) was drawing a parallel between S-D converters and under-biassed class B amplifiers. He knows about the zero crossing dead zone in class B amplifiers but he was only focussing on digital's dead zone at the zero crossing when undithered. He didn't mention that typical S-D converters (not including DSD) have literally dozens of similar dead zones throughout their transfer function.

 

[Bruce B]

how can another Holy Grail help you?

Because you and others in this thread are telling me that NOS DAC's sound the best. I didn't hear it.....

 

[opus111]

Bruno did have some interesting views back in 2003/2004 (was from an interview) in the development/implementation of DSD; think you posted in that thread on gearslutz (or another site) Bruce when it came up again in 2010 in a discussion.

Do you have any links to share - whilst I don't always agree with Bruno, he's definitely worth reading whatever topic he's talking about. Last I heard he thinks the reason people like NOS DACs is the frequency droop, he also wasn't at all impressed with the MSB DAC he connected to his AP - he got around 13bit dynamic range which varied with the signal level as if the internal electronics operated on a gain-ranging basis. Kind of like a floating point DAC.

 

[Bruce B]

Last I heard he thinks the reason people like NOS DACs is the frequency droop, he also wasn't at all impressed with the MSB DAC he connected to his AP - .

Do you have a link where we could read?

 

[opus111]

Because you and others in this thread are telling me that NOS DAC's sound the best. I didn't hear it.....

Well they definitely sound the best to us. I think its a personal thing myself, we all hear differently - not everyone prefers the most transparent electronics.

 

[opus111]

Do you have a link where we could read?

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-40.html#post2898757

Can't remember where I read about his NOS views, so no link on that.

 

[bbb]

One of my more challenging experiences in digital was carried decades ago when I modded an old Sony X7 ESD. I removed all the analog stage, IV converter included, and replaced it with a grounded 50 ohm high quality resistor followed by a home hand made coil and polystyrene capacitor implementing a 100 kHz LC filter. Perhaps it was DIY bias expectation, but it was by far the more sweet and detailed digital I had listened for a long time, happily my preamplifier was able to compensate for the low output. It sounded very different from the original. Just to tell that in this case the sound of the machine was dominated by the analog stage, not by the DAC . All IMHO.

Although it is OT, you are finally getting into the beginning of what IMHO, makes a dac a dac or any hifi equipment for that matter. How many dacs nowadays have that kind of attention paid to it? Very very few. The once mighty SCD-1 (I used to own one), a product that possibly was sold at a loss as a statement for SACD, has more than 10 opamps in its signal path. Its output design just copied BB's white paper wholesale. If this could happen to a statement product, what about most other dacs that is built to a price point? Peter alluded to the compromise manufacturers take in every product they make, be it immature tech, cost pressure, logistical constraints etc etc, even the so-called high-end. This, I am afraid, is the reality. Once again, sorry for the OT.

 

[opus111]

One of my more challenging experiences in digital was carried decades ago when I modded an old Sony X7 ESD - a marvelous machine - the drawer movement was something special. It used a BB PCM58 k grade - I think it was an 18 bits chip. I removed all the analog stage, IV converter included, and replaced it with a grounded 50 ohm high quality resistor followed by a home hand made coil and polystyrene capacitor implementing a 100 kHz LC filter. Perhaps it was DIY bias expectation, but it was by far the more sweet and detailed digital I had listened for a long time, happily my preamplifier was able to compensate for the low output. It sounded very different from the original. Just to tell that in this case the sound of the machine was dominated by the analog stage, not by the DAC . All IMHO.

Your experience parallels my own on inserting an LC filter between the DAC and subsequent analog stage. The subjective improvement is of enhanced dynamic range - this would also be the objective improvement if I had the right kit to measure it. What's kinda surprising to me is the number of manufacturers taking such an approach is very small. Zanden comes to mind first, of course, Audio Note used to but seems they don't any longer. Naim have done this in the past, not sure if their latest designs do.

 

[NorthStar]

Bruce, you used the 1st generation 24/384 NOS1 DAC - the current async-USB 24/768 is much better.

Did you use the current version of XXHighEnd to feed your 1st generation NOS1? Was it a fully activated version? Were you using it in 'Minimize OS' mode? How about 'Phase Alignment' - what settings did you use? I'll stop there. There's a lot more than I've described above. If you didn't even do this, you certainly didn't give it it's fair due.

In any event, if you're happy with your MPS-5 and MSB DACs, that's cool. You obviously like the delta-sigma sound.

Mani.

Mani, right now are you using the best in digital music reproduction?

Regards,
Bob

 

[Bruce B]

, he also wasn't at all impressed with the MSB DAC he connected to his AP - he got around 13bit dynamic range which varied with the signal level as if the internal electronics operated on a gain-ranging basis. Kind of like a floating point DAC.

So he got his opinion/measurements and posted last year and then he said it was "some time ago"... what... 2005? 2003? Hardly you can go on anectdotal information from years past when the MSB DAC has had at least 2 ver. update with numerous firmware changes. Much less the Galaxy/Femto clock architecture that was not even developed by then.

Yes, I like analytical DACs and H/W. I have to.. it's my job. I need to pick music/projects apart under a microscope. I don't need colorations and certainly don't need anything "rolled off".

I'm not into this as a hobby... it's a business. I have to make keen business decisions. I need equipment that will work every single time I turn it on and the results have to be repeatable. If you like colored rolled off DAC's... fine with me. I can't have some ancient digital H/W that I have to pray will work everyday and wonder in the back of my head if its spitting out the correct bits.

I spent the better part of the past 7yr. putting together the most cutting edge studio I can so my clients will get the best possible sound. I don't pick the H/W because it sounds good... I chose it because it was true to the source.. be it live mic feed, analog master tapes or one off direct cut vinyl.

I truly wish ya'll the best of luck in your search for nirvana with RBCD but I'm moving on. CD's are the past. I need to look in the future and try to guess where the industry is going and be one step ahead. Time is money.... I have enough of one.

 

[manisandher]

Mani, right now are you using the best in digital music reproduction?

Who knows. But I'd bet my house that it's right up there with the best of the best.

Mani.

 

[NorthStar]

Who knows. But I'd bet my house that it's right up there with the best of the best.

Mani.

Thank you.