DSD Battle Royale!

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Why don't you replace the Grimm AD1 with your new Tascam DA-3000 and do all your recordings at DSD128? Unless you are trying to sell DSD64 music to a larger audience why would anyone record vinyl, tape or live performances at DSD64 when DSD128 is better.

Anyway count me in.

Because I feel the Grimm AD1 is the best DSD recorder to date regardless of sample rate. We can also do DSD recordings at DSD256fs as well.
 

MadFloyd

Member Sponsor
May 30, 2010
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If it's not too late, I'd like to join in too.
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Hopefully I can get the files up soon. I have a recording gig I have to go to on Wednesday and trying to get everything done for RMAF. I have 3 videos to post and 9 cases of tape sitting in the floor. On top of that, I have 3 DSD converters and more equipment to review. It's good to be a mastering engineer!
 

tailspn

Member
Jun 28, 2011
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...why would anyone record vinyl, tape or live performances at DSD64 when DSD128 is better.

There are trade-offs associated with higher sampling rates. The benefit is that for every doubling of the sampling rate, the frequency at which the shifted noise rises out of the thermal noise (about -140dB) doubles. For 64fs, that's about 20KHz, for 128fs, about 40KHz, for 256fs, about 80KHz, and so on. In practical terms, since the shaped noise envelope has the same shape and spectral content regardless of sampling rate, (just shifted up an octave for every doubling of the sampling rate), it equates to a lessening of the noise at any one frequency above where the shifted noise becomes apparent of -6dB, or half, for every doubling of the sample rate.

The downside of higher sampling rates is available settling time. For 64fs (2.82MHz) the period is 355 nanoseconds. Give away say 25% for rise and fall times of the gating logic and jitter buffering, and you're left with about 266ns for the analog sample and hold circuitry to stabilize and lock in the level. Double the sampling rate to 128fs (5.6MHz, and now you have about 133ns. 256fs and you've got about 67ns. That's pretty high analog performance for a $30 chip. What suffers is accuracy. All that for 6 or 12dB of ultrasonic noise reduction that only your pet bat, and marginally designed amplifiers are affected?

Where it does amount to something is if you're a studio laying down tracks on one another, and just like tape of old, there's a +6dB increase of noise for every generation. Higher DSD sampling rates can now make many post production techniques practical.
 
Last edited:

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
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There are trade-offs associated with higher sampling rates. The benefit is that for every doubling of the sampling rate, the frequency at which the shifted noise rises out of the thermal noise (about -140dB) doubles. For 64fs, that's about 20KHz, for 128fs, about 40KHz, for 256fs, about 80KHz, and so on. In practical terms, since the shaped noise envelope has the same shape and spectral content regardless of sampling rate, (just shifted up an octave for every doubling of the sampling rate), it equates to a lessening of the noise at any one frequency above where the shifted noise becomes apparent of -6dB, or half, for every doubling of the sample rate.

The downside of higher sampling rates is available settling time. For 64fs (2.82MHz) the period is 355 nanoseconds. Give away say 25% for rise and fall times of the gating logic and jitter buffering, and you're left with about 266ns for the analog sample and hold circuitry to stabilize and lock in the level. Double the sampling rate to 128fs (5.6MHz, and now you have about 133ns. 256fs and you've got about 67ns. That's pretty high analog performance for a $30 chip. What suffers is accuracy. All that for 6 or 12dB of ultrasonic noise reduction that only your pet bat, and marginally designed amplifiers are affected?

Where it does amount to something is if you're a studio laying down tracks on one another, and just like tape of old, there's a +6dB increase of noise for every generation. Higher DSD sampling rates can now make many post production techniques practical.

What if you dont use a decoder chip but rather multi-stage filtering?
 

bmoura

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2013
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Because I feel the Grimm AD1 is the best DSD recorder to date regardless of sample rate. We can also do DSD recordings at DSD256fs as well.

Speaking of Grimm, I see that they are exhibiting a Home Music setup with Speakers and a Grimm DSD64 + DSD128 DAC at RMAF. That should be interesting.

With all the use of high end DACs for audiophile playback, I wonder if anyone has an AD1 for their Multichannel and Stereo DSD Download playback ?!
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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With all the use of high end DACs for audiophile playback, I wonder if anyone has an AD1 for their Multichannel and Stereo DSD Download playback ?!

I love my AD1 and OC1. Use it all the time.
 

tailspn

Member
Jun 28, 2011
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With all the use of high end DACs for audiophile playback, I wonder if anyone has an AD1 for their Multichannel and Stereo DSD Download playback ?!

Hi Brian,

Unfortunately, the Grimm AD1 is a A/D Converter only. There's no included DAC section, as like a Mytek 8X192. Their LS1 integrated music system though does include a DAC, as well as amplifiers and speakers. Their AD1 can be heard with the fine transfers Bruce has made with it, as well as any of the Channel Classics recordings made with it in the last four years.
 

bmoura

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2013
417
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Hi Brian,

Unfortunately, the Grimm AD1 is a A/D Converter only. There's no included DAC section, as like a Mytek 8X192. Their LS1 integrated music system though does include a DAC, as well as amplifiers and speakers. Their AD1 can be heard with the fine transfers Bruce has made with it, as well as any of the Channel Classics recordings made with it in the last four years.

Thanks for the clarification. So the Grimm integrated system - or the DAC from it - would be needed to get a Grimm option to playback DSD Files/Downloads at home.
 

bmoura

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2013
417
3
248
Or consider Bruno Putzeys' Mola Mola DAC. He's the designer of the Grimm AD1, and undoubtedly the designer of the electronics within the Grimm LS1.

http://www.mola-mola.nl/index.php/dak

Some interesting prototypes there. It sounds like the 2 Channel DAC is a board that fits inside their upcoming Stereo preamp.
Didn't see any 6 or 8 channel products on the site for Multichannel DSD playback.
 

tailspn

Member
Jun 28, 2011
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Didn't see any 6 or 8 channel products on the site for Multichannel DSD playback.

So far it's the Oppo BD-105, Mytek 3 stack, and eXasound e18 for multi-channel consumer DACs, and Merging's Horus for the Pro market.
 

bmoura

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2013
417
3
248
So far it's the Oppo BD-105, Mytek 3 stack, and eXasound e18 for multi-channel consumer DACs, and Merging's Horus for the Pro market.

Let's see....
  • Oppo 105 - if you use the USB ports and not the network function, Multichannel DSD works fine (my current solution).
  • Mytek 3 stack - interesting, but I sure wish Mytek would come up with an all-in-one piece, like their pro 8x192 DSD for the home market.
  • ExaSound e28 - I think the ExaSound e18 only offers 2 Channel DSD, while the e28 offers 8 channel DSD up to DSD256.
  • Horus - yes, looks like the studio solution, especially if you're going to DSD256.

It's early in the proceedings, but there are a few interesting choices out there. Looking forward to hearing the competition for the Oppo at RMAF !
 

zog

Well-Known Member
Oct 8, 2013
20
1
133
I am interested
 

bmoura

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2013
417
3
248
Or consider Bruno Putzeys' Mola Mola DAC. He's the designer of the Grimm AD1, and undoubtedly the designer of the electronics within the Grimm LS1.

http://www.mola-mola.nl/index.php/dak

I had a chance to hear the Grimm LS-1 and Mola Mola systems at RMAF this weekend. Very impressive - I understand all of the kudos and praise headed their way.
But the pricing on those systems is pretty steep - especially if you took the Stereo systems being shown and tripled those costs for 5.1 Surround. Ouch!

But having also heard the Horus, if Pyramix is looking at the rumored 2 card box and a pro-sumer offering, it would be above the cost of today's audiophile Surround Sound options (the Mytek 3-Stack & exaSound e28) but it would be quite tempting. Maybe we will hear more on that at AES in New York later in the month.
 

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