Does McIntosh have the best resale value

[taters]

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine last night and he say's McIntosh has the best resale value of all audio equipment. I told him that ARC, Ayre, VAC, FM Acoustics and VTL have just as good resale as MC. From you're experience what do you think?

 

[MylesBAstor]

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine last night and he say's McIntosh has the best resale value of all audio equipment. I told him that ARC, Ayre, VAC, FM Acoustics and VTL have just as good resale as MC. From you're experience what do you think?

I've never had a problem selling cj or Martin-Logan Just the shipping

 

[LL21]

I've never had a problem selling cj or Martin-Logan Just the shipping

You can add Zanden to that list...good and bad...good if you're selling. Bad if you're still looking after nearly 5 years for a good deal...

 

[Bill Hart]

Lamm, Shindo as well.

 

[trh8654]

They are all down now.

 

[mep]

I know I can't sell my ARC VS115 which surprises me. People jumped all over my LS-17 and don't want to touch the VS115 unless they can buy it for nothing. The VS115 is WAY better as an amp than the LS-17 could ever dream of being a good preamp.

 

[FrantzM]

I have heard the same about Mac Intosh. I can understand that ARC doesn't hold its value verywell.. The company seems to comes up with a new version of actual model every year ...
FM Acoustics more so than any other gear I have seen in recent memory enjoys a cult status. Some do want to believe that it is absolutely The best. I would safely assume that more than any other gear it retains its value, actually I believe their value may even increase on the used market. Question: How many times has anyone seen an FM Acoustics for sale anywhere and if ever how long did the listing last?

FM Acoustics is #1 on the resale value by a light year, I suppose some really esoteric gear such as Zanden, WAVAC holds much of their value too.. WAVAC has for tubes a reputation similar to FM Acoustics and so does Zanden followed by Mac Intosh, I would think Lamm is up there but far from those.

 

[mep]

I truly believe that FM Acoustics is a cult and it starts with the company itself. I have already spilled ink on what I think of their management philosophy. Every time I look closely at another picture of the insides of their gear, the more doubts I have about the quality of their work. I said before that their sheet metal work is very so-so and at the prices they charge, woefully below the design and quality of the high-end they compete against and out-charge. From what I have seen of their solder joints, none of their people have any type of solder certifications-certainly nothing like the military J-Standards that all of my techs are certified to.

To be fair, I have never heard any of their gear and maybe somehow the circuit designs of their gear is so superior that it overcomes the quality of their workmanship.

 

[A.wayne]

What about Krell , Not unusual for them to have issues from all that heat, not to mention service, yet they have a strong somewhat cult like following . Can't recall Krells ever being mentioned in the same sentence with FMA , for sonics or reliability ....

http://www.audioaficionado.org/mbl-dcs-goldmund-esoteric-etc/12605-fm-acoustics.html#post271659


I will agree Huber's stuff can look pedestrian , Especially at their price point ....

 

[mep]

What about Krell , Not unusual for them to have issues from all that heat, not to mention service, yet they have a strong somewhat cult like following . Can't recall Krells ever being mentioned in the same sentence with FMA , for sonics or reliability ....

http://www.audioaficionado.org/mbl-dcs-goldmund-esoteric-etc/12605-fm-acoustics.html#post271659


I will agree Huber's stuff can look pedestrian , Especially at their price point ....

I don’t know if you said that because you know that I own Krell gear. I bought a KSA-250, Krell KBL, and a Krell KPE-Reference phono stage. The Krell KSA-250 arrived non-functional. The KBL quit working shortly after I bought it. The KPE Reference has been flawless. I sent both the KSA-250 and the KBL back to Krell to be repaired and recapped.

The KSA-250 had to be sent back again after the initial repair because of a hum issue. To Krell’s credit, they paid to have UPS show up at my door and haul it back to Krell and they paid for UPS to deliver it back to my door. I didn’t pay a cent. Yes, it took longer than I wanted it to.

If you take a look inside of the Krell gear that I own as well as the outside, you can see that it was built to top standards. The quality of their sheet metal work is extremely high, and one look inside of the KBL will show you about quality of manufacturing. The machined RCA jacks are a thing of beauty all by themselves. The 83 lb power transformer inside of the KSA-250 makes you understand why it is capable of producing 4000 watts into .5 ohm. And none of that would matter if the gear didn’t really sound good, but it does.

 

[puroagave]

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine last night and he say's McIntosh has the best resale value of all audio equipment. I told him that ARC, Ayre, VAC, FM Acoustics and VTL have just as good resale as MC. From you're experience what do you think?

take a look at this site http://kruipen.com/
it tracks asking prices of used gear offered for sale on the net, final agreed to sales price would most likely be less.

mcintosh has had a strong following the last ten yrs and resale is above average but they sell a lot and the adage "if you can fog a mirror, you can become a dealer" is prevalent with mac, which means the long term resale value wont be strong.

 

[A.wayne]

I don’t know if you said that because you know that I own Krell gear. I bought a KSA-250, Krell KBL, and a Krell KPE-Reference phono stage. The Krell KSA-250 arrived non-functional. The KBL quit working shortly after I bought it. The KPE Reference has been flawless. I sent both the KSA-250 and the KBL back to Krell to be repaired and recapped.

The KSA-250 had to be sent back again after the initial repair because of a hum issue. To Krell’s credit, they paid to have UPS show up at my door and haul it back to Krell and they paid for UPS to deliver it back to my door. I didn’t pay a cent. Yes, it took longer than I wanted it to.

If you take a look inside of the Krell gear that I own as well as the outside, you can see that it was built to top standards. The quality of their sheet metal work is extremely high, and one look inside of the KBL will show you about quality of manufacturing. The machined RCA jacks are a thing of beauty all by themselves. The 83 lb power transformer inside of the KSA-250 makes you understand why it is capable of producing 4000 watts into .5 ohm. And none of that would matter if the gear didn’t really sound good, but it does.

Mep,
I don't think it is fair for you to be making such derogatory comments like that about FMA Gear or their owners when you have no experience with their products and yes , i have Owned Krell gear myself , I have never had issues , but I have friends who did and I did mention Huber 's amplifiers can look pedestrian , not sure why you feel this qualify or give FMA cult status , if so the same can be said about Krell, as well as others (cult status)

FMA stuff sounds good to the ones writing the check, same for Krell , maybe we can start a poll to see if Krell is subjectively in the same league ..


Just saying ....

 

[hvbias]

I think any gear sold in larger than normal (relatively speaking for this small hobby) numbers will inevitably have more products up for sale on the used market, regardless of how good or bad it sounds. Audiophiles love to change out equipment even if it sounds great. So when there are more products of a certain brand out there, the resale will suffer. I also agree with others that if a company frequently releases new products which are similar or slight upgrades from another it can either hurt brand image or create more people to upgrade meaning more of the older model being up on the sale block.

It's similar to other niche industries, like cycles. A Specialized race bike won't hold its value nearly as well as a custom built frame from a cottage industry builder. Even if both bikes perform extremely similarly there might be 100 Specialized sales for every 1 from the cottage industry builder. Thus more on the used market.

In my experience looking for gear I've searched for Vendetta Research, Vacuum State Audio, Berning, and Fi all seem to hold their value well.

 

[Bill Hart]

take a look at this site http://kruipen.com/
it tracks asking prices of used gear offered for sale on the net, final agreed to sales price would most likely be less.

mcintosh has had a strong following the last ten yrs and resale is above average but they sell a lot and the adage "if you can fog a mirror, you can become a dealer" is prevalent with mac, which means the long term resale value wont be strong.

Consistent with what you said Puro, because Mac is pretty ubiquitous and its pricing- with the exception of perhaps the very top pieces- is far more within the range of the audiophile of more average means, it is within the realm of possibility for a greater number of buyers and that helps make a market for it. There is a better market for a BMW that comes off lease after 3 years than the much more expensive newish Bentley or Rolls, which depreciates like a rock. (Quality here is not the argument, its very ubiquity helps assure a market. You could look at Toyata resale values, say, compared to almost anything else in the car market- i haven't done the research but would suspect it's an impressive figure. And, to be sure, reliability and a company that's withstood the test of time certainly helps). I'm not crapping on Mc here- i have a few pieces in my home theatre system and I gather that their audio only stuff within the past 10 years is well regarded. (Back in the day when I first started, it was 'old guy' stuff, except for the really early collectors' pieces and a couple of tube amps, a tuner and a preamp or two, all tube stuff).
For what it's worth, the term 'cult' could be applied to virtually any brand with a following. It's all a question of degree. Look at the folks on the Gon who worship a budget tube amp, or a relatively cheap passive preamp. Those have 'cult' followings too, don't they?
I don't think alot of the uber-priced gear that we are seeing in the last few years will necessarily withstand the passage of time. Yeah, maybe a few pieces-I hesitate to predict what those will be. Maybe that's a good topic for another thread. Which of today's big dog gear (100k+ tables, amps that weigh more than houses and speakers the sizes of Rhode Island) will fetch collector prices in 10 or 30 years? (think: Marantz 10b or Mclaren F1) And think of the brands, Halcro comes to mind (although I know very little about the product), that were vaunted as high priced state of the art just a few years ago, and have no real following that I am aware of today.
postscript: in saying all this, i realize I am not equating good resale value with sound quality.
Maybe out of an excess of caution, i should use my 'silly' version of that disclaimer i cooked up the other day.

 

[A.wayne]

Halcro seems to have fallen out of favor and agree about the cult status thing and yes it's audio , one man's euphoria is another's anathema ..

 

[puroagave]

Consistent with what you said Puro, because Mac is pretty ubiquitous and its pricing- with the exception of perhaps the very top pieces- is far more within the range of the audiophile of more average means, it is within the realm of possibility for a greater number of buyers and that helps make a market for it. There is a better market for a BMW that comes off lease after 3 years than the much more expensive newish Bentley or Rolls, which depreciates like a rock. (Quality here is not the argument, its very ubiquity helps assure a market. You could look at Toyata resale values, say, compared to almost anything else in the car market- i haven't done the research but would suspect it's an impressive figure. And, to be sure, reliability and a company that's withstood the test of time certainly helps). I'm not crapping on Mc here- i have a few pieces in my home theatre system and I gather that their audio only stuff within the past 10 years is well regarded. (Back in the day when I first started, it was 'old guy' stuff, except for the really early collectors' pieces and a couple of tube amps, a tuner and a preamp or two, all tube stuff).
For what it's worth, the term 'cult' could be applied to virtually any brand with a following. It's all a question of degree. Look at the folks on the Gon who worship a budget tube amp, or a relatively cheap passive preamp. Those have 'cult' followings too, don't they?
I don't think alot of the uber-priced gear that we are seeing in the last few years will necessarily withstand the passage of time. Yeah, maybe a few pieces-I hesitate to predict what those will be. Maybe that's a good topic for another thread. Which of today's big dog gear (100k+ tables, amps that weigh more than houses and speakers the sizes of Rhode Island) will fetch collector prices in 10 or 30 years? (think: Marantz 10b or Mclaren F1) And think of the brands, Halcro comes to mind (although I know very little about the product), that were vaunted as high priced state of the art just a few years ago, and have no real following that I am aware of today.
postscript: in saying all this, i realize I am not equating good resale value with sound quality.
Maybe out of an excess of caution, i should use my 'silly' version of that disclaimer i cooked up the other day.

the test for a legit high-end mfr to open any dealer is whether they sell sevral other complimentary gear with similar limted dist so the dealer can effectively demo the gear and properly represent the brand. i was walking through little saigon the other day (so cali) looking for the perfect bowl of Pho when i stumbled upon a hole-in-the-wall storefront--sandwiched between a Bánh mì shop and a dollar chotskies emporium--that sold mcintosh, proudly displayed next to the karaoke machines and DJ equipment. the gentleman that helped me was FOB probably from the real saigon (Ho Chi Minh city) and couldnt effectively communicate let alone sell in english.

my point is, you wont find dartzeel or playback designs there, and i mention those brands because their dist. jon tinn does a heck of a job protecting his cutomers investments and the longevity of his own busness and the reputation of those products. try getting a 'deal' on one let alone a used one with any appreciable discount.

 

[JackD201]

I coulda gone to the gon to check the bluebook values but I haven't renewed. Anyone have an active account and want to check the historical data on some of the popular models?

 

[A.wayne]

the test for a legit high-end mfr to open any dealer is whether they sell sevral other complimentary gear with similar limted dist so the dealer can effectively demo the gear and properly represent the brand. i was walking through little saigon the other day (so cali) looking for the perfect bowl of Pho when i stumbled upon a hole-in-the-wall storefront--sandwiched between a Bánh mì shop and a dollar chotskies emporium--that sold mcintosh, proudly displayed next to the karaoke machines and DJ equipment. the gentleman that helped me was FOB probably from the real saigon (Ho Chi Minh city) and couldnt effectively communicate let alone sell in english.

my point is, you wont find dartzeel or playback designs there, and i mention those brands because their dist. jon tinn does a heck of a job protecting his cutomers investments and the longevity of his own busness and the reputation of those products. try getting a 'deal' on one let alone a used one with any appreciable discount.

McIntosh cannot survive With the small sales volume of Dartzeel , hence the different approach , corp vs small independent. What is obvious is that hi-fi is dead in the USA and real tangible sales are coming out of Asia , he nuh need no henglish to speak to his clientele ...

 

[mep]

Mep,
I don't think it is fair for you to be making such derogatory comments like that about FMA Gear or their owners when you have no experience with their products and yes , i have Owned Krell gear myself , I have never had issues , but I have friends who did and I did mention Huber 's amplifiers can look pedestrian , not sure why you feel this qualify or give FMA cult status , if so the same can be said about Krell, as well as others (cult status)

FMA stuff sounds good to the ones writing the check, same for Krell , maybe we can start a poll to see if Krell is subjectively in the same league ..


Just saying ....

I didn’t make any comments on how the gear sounds-just how it is built. I think my observations are quite fair and accurate. There are other high end companies (think Ayre) who charge way less money for great gear which is also made to an extremely high standard. Chassis that are machined out of billet aluminum for instance vice stamped sheet metal is a nice touch. All I’m saying is that if you are selling gear that is priced at the upper stratosphere of the high end, it should be built accordingly. Other companies are doing it for far less money. FM is not doing that and that is my observation and I stand by it.

After visiting FM’s website and reading about their manufacturing philosophy, I’m convinced that part of the reason their gear is so high priced is it has to be in order to make up for the manufacturing inefficiencies they have built into their products. All of that feel-good psycho babble about people not having a set amount of production they are responsible for on any given day tells you everything you need to know about this company and why they can’t set production schedules, why it takes so long to get products out the door, and why they have to be so expensive. Just saying...

 

[JackD201]

Mark,

It could be the other way around too. Their price differentiation might be so extreme, keeping inventory would make no sense, hence by order only.