Do electrostats have a "plastic" coloration?

[garylkoh]

Hi Gary,

Let me open a can of worms here...and something on behalf of us non-techies. I totally understand and accept (from experience) that endless reserves of power can be exceptionally important in certain systems. The question i have for you is this:

- in your mind, from an engineering and audio perspective, is there much difference in your mind for Martin Logans (or in my case big Wilsons) between a 200 watt amp with ridiculous headroom (5000watt peak into 0.5 ohm load and 400,000 mf capacitance)...and a high quality 1000 watt amp (also doubling down, etc), all else being relatively equal (ie same quality of capacitors, transistors, isolation, etc)...

Once one passes the simple "double watts to add 3db math" test...and can get to, say, 120db of constant sound without strain...what then is the difference from a sound perspective between 200watts and 1000? I am not questioning whether there is or not (i fully admit i do not know)...and wish to learn from someone with serious experence (and who is actually building a 1000+ watt amp).

thanks for any 'simple man's' explanations!

Lloyd,

I think it does make a difference, but I'll have to admit that I'm still learning here. I'm only 5 years into being a full-time audio designer. I spent the first two learning the basics (almost a university degree course on its own!!) and the last three exploring uncharted or less-charted territory. We've gone over 25 pages on the Power thread here, with no answer in sight. Unfortunately, I still haven't found a limit of watts which will continue to improve my own G7p (a 2-way bookshelf speaker) - even though, theoretically when playing at average pleasant listening levels, I don't need more than a watt.

 

[fas42]

Once one passes the simple "double watts to add 3db math" test...and can get to, say, 120db of constant sound without strain...what then is the difference from a sound perspective between 200watts and 1000? I am not questioning whether there is or not (i fully admit i do not know)...and wish to learn from someone with serious experence (and who is actually building a 1000+ watt amp).

thanks for any 'simple man's' explanations!

Now that Gary has responded, I'll throw in my 2 bit's worth, as someone who is keenly interested in such matters. In many areas of audio we're still at the level of cars made in the 20's and 30's, where parts of them were immensely strong and other aspects extremely fragile, because they didn't really understand what levels and type of engineering was required to create a balanced result. For example, they had heavy metal chassis's that could do duty on a ten ton truck, but engines that would break down at the slightest provocation.

So it is for amplifiers. If you make one ridiculously powerful it will do the job very nicely when cruising, because the over-engineering is compensating for deficiencies not properly understood and correctly designed for. So in that sense the more enormous the amplifier the better off you'll be at the moment, all else being equal.

Frank

 

[LL21]

Lloyd,

I think it does make a difference, but I'll have to admit that I'm still learning here. I'm only 5 years into being a full-time audio designer. I spent the first two learning the basics (almost a university degree course on its own!!) and the last three exploring uncharted or less-charted territory. We've gone over 25 pages on the Power thread here, with no answer in sight. Unfortunately, I still haven't found a limit of watts which will continue to improve my own G7p (a 2-way bookshelf speaker) - even though, theoretically when playing at average pleasant listening levels, I don't need more than a watt.

Interesting. Intuitively when something is easy for a component, it should seem effortless (basically, better)...though i have read some feel just the opposite (that high powered muscle amps have not always delivered the best first watt...read the Bryston 28BSST review in Stereophile from many years ago which remarked that the 28BSST was one of the few exceptions to the author's general observation.)

 

[ack]

We are diverging here, but my limited experience here over the last 25 years says that, depending on your speakers' efficiency, there may be cases where there is never enough power. For the speakers we are talking about here (low efficiency), that is certainly the case, IMO. On the other hand, we have horns (typically high efficiency) with disastrous results when driven by powerful SS amps...

 

[karma]

HI All,
After many years living with Martin Logan CLS IIA's I have learned something. These speakers are the most difficult, cantankerous, speakers ever put on the planet. They have two problems. First, they are so honest that they show every wart in the system electronics. Nothing gets a pass. They must be used with truly great electronics.

Second, they are very difficult to drive. The impedance curve at high frequencies is brutal going down to about 1 ohm at 20kHz. The require an extremely stable power amp that can deliver a lot of high quality current at high frequencies.

But, if you surround them with the right system, I've never heard anything that could be described as "plasticy". One of the issues with these speakers is they are not expensive. I think this leads the average person to think that they can get away with less than great electronics. It's just not true. While the speakers may not be expensive, you will more than make up for the savings by having to buy great and expensive electronics. There is no way out of it. Great sound is expensive no matter where in your system you spend your money.

I have driven my speakers with a variety of amplifiers ranging from good to great. Currently, I'm using an Audio Research D250 Mk2 Servo amplifier. The CLS's with this amp sings. I've not heard any speaker I would trade them for.

Sparky

 

[kevinh]

I am familiar with the Sound Labs, one of the issues with them is they need a lot of voltage swing. Some solid state amps have trouble with that. They are essentially a transformer coupled capacitor. The impedence at low frewuencies is high as a result. IIRC the A1's had an impedance of ~12 ohms at 1k hz tat would drop to (depending on how the brillance control was set to ~2ohms ar 20k hz.

A version of the B1 electrostatic sub had a 50ohm impedance.

That is why a lot of SL owners like to use them w Atma Sphere OTL amps they are quite happy with that sort of load and can swing more Voltage into the load with music than most SS amps. The Crown Macro's were popular again the ability to swing a lot of volts into the load. The amp must also be able to handle a reactive load presented by the Speakers. The Spectron Mono' or bridging the new Ncore modules could also work well.

Not sure about the ML's

 

[karma]

HI All,
I think the term "plasticy" might be the worst adjective ever invented by a reviewer. It describes nothing and says nothing. PRAT comes in a distant second. I think HP just enjoys stirring the pot. He's done it before. That we are giving it this much time is a measure of our own culpability. I don't trust HP at all. He just laughs at us.

Sparky

 

[Sharp 1080]

For those of you old enough to remember reading all of HP's rants in The Absolute Sound I am certain he was referring to specifically the Acoustat speakers. I went from Magnepan MGIIB's to a pair of Acoustat 2+2's and then to Martin Logan Sequel II's and the last panel/stat speaker I owned before my Wilson WP/7's were a pair of Martin Logan Odyssey's. Out of all those speakers the Acoustat's were the only one's to occasionally sound "plastic like" in the upper mids. When the transformers were upgraded to medallion's and a panel replaced (shot a whole thru it while unjamming a 9mm round, as a matter of fact they kept the panel as a souvenir) the "plastic sound" went away.

 

[audioarcher]

Do electrostats have a plastic coloration?

Mine don't.:b

I've had my Innersound Kayas about 4 years now. I was driving them with a Parasound Halo A21 when I first got them. It has 250 wpc into 8 ohms. I noticed that on hard piano strikes and some other dynamic music I would get some distortion. I replaced the A21 with my current Innersound DPR-500. It has 500 wpc into 8 ohms and was designed to power my speakers. Now there is no distortion that I can hear even at insanely high SPL's.

This may not apply to other electrostat designs as they are all different but it seems to me that under driving electrostats is a bad thing and may cause some coloration. Some of the older designs such as Quads were not designed to play loud without arcing so I would not recommend high power for them.

Sean

 

[DonH50]

Something not terribly obvious about panels, 'stats or dynamics, is that they like low output impedance amplifiers even in the mid and lower ranges to help control panel resonances. At HF, 'stats capacitance presents a very low load to an amp just as the feedback is typically rolling off. Dynamics are not always any better, as e.g. Magnepan's ribbon tweeter is only 1 - 2 ohms itself (and has an internal 1-ohm resistor to both balance the output level and make it a "nicer" 2 - 3 ohm load). And of course full-range ribbons are notoriously hard to drive due to their very low impedance.

I read the earlier post that attempted to describe what "plastic sound" meant and admit I am still confused by that term. OTOH, many terms reviewers use I find nonsensical, and some I think I understand are still difficult to accurately define let alone quantify. I have heard all sorts of 'stats (Infinity, Acoustat, Beveridge, Martin Logan, Rogers, Soundlabs, Dayton Wright, Quad, and several others I have forgotten); not sure I recall any being "plastic" sounding...