Diminishing returns / return on investment

I am still in all out assault mode, so diminishing returns is expected as long as there is a return on improved sound quality. That said, I like buying used speakers. I saved $100K off my Wilson X-2.2's msrp used and factory re-certified by purchasing them when XLF came out.
 
Irrespective of the money spent there's also a subjective side to all of this that's often left out of the diminishing returns calculations. Aside from room, which for me is a given and also the most complex part of the system to put right, better doesn't always equal more. What I mean by that is just because you buy a better widget doesn't mean that you have furthered your listening pleasure, often even the opposite is true. Musically satisfying systems don't need to be the latest or the greatest and they might not massage your little audiophile's ego either but they're all about pleasure. That's my approach to systems, fuss free listening and musical pleasure, return on investment is measured solely based on elevated levels of musical satisfaction and not by immaterial audiophile standards set by certain members of the media that have nothing to do with actual musical pleasure.

david
 
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I am still in all out assault mode, so diminishing returns is expected as long as there is a return on improved sound quality. That said, I like buying used speakers. I saved $100K off my Wilson X-2.2's msrp used and factory re-certified by purchasing them when XLF came out.

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Hi all,

Some recent threads have highlighted this proverbial question.

Personally, I'll be receiving some new (used) speakers this Thursday with some pretty high expectations regarding a clear performance "bump".

Let me clearly state that I am not criticizing anyone for investments made in their audio systems. Read conspicuous consumption. This is a personal question that can only be answered by each individual.

The often used matrix resembles the classic X - Y graph with dollars being the "X" / horizontal axis and "Y" / vertical axis being system performance. At some point, the plot is no longer linear (greater than or equal to dollars invested versus added performance) and tends to "flatten out".

I know that I have struggled with this in the past within the context of real versus perceived value and the "expectation bias" phenomena.

Any guidelines that forum members use to address this issue, within the context of overall system cost or other appropriate parameters, when contemplating a buying decision?

GG

Dude,
I think you have a good starting point for a model of why people keep swapping gear, but let’s expand on it a bit.

I think there are several principles in play. Individually, they are not that complex. But they come together in interesting ways. First is from psychology/ economics. The technical term is “hedonic adaptation” by psychologists and declining marginal utility by economists. By being exposed to something over a period of time, we get used to it and it becomes our reference. For the majority in Hawaii, the rainbows and the sunsets are just not as special as to the honeymooning tourist. Get that person to Alaska for 5 years and they will again appreciate those sunsets for a little while. We quickly adapt and get less and less pleasure every time. Additionally, as we are getting used to something, after a while, our brain expects to see or hear thing a certain way just because we are used to them. If you are used to listening in one hall or jazz club, another venue may feel strange for a short while until we get used to it.

Now let’s look at the economics/ sociology angle. There is also a reality in this hobby, which many people refuse to admit, is that some products are better than others. Take a car like BMW. You can get a fairly basic model for somewhere in the low to mid $30K range. If you are fond of the way the brand drives and really engaged in the car hobby, BMW can sell you a car that has that same BMW feel for a lot of money. My friend went from a 3-series to a 6 series, and then to an M sports division 6 series, and is now looking forward to an Alpina modded BMW. Same way with speakers. Take a most basic MBL or a Magico. They got that house sound. If you want more, they can get you up there to the top of their product line.

And the way they get you up there looks more like the technology S curve, with time represented on the x axis and performance on the y axis. As you move from one speaker to another, you jump from one S curve to another. The curve with the newer gear may start out lower, or start at the tip of the previous one and then dip down if you are changing rooms or don’t have the right ancillaries. But eventually, as you upgrade, you will hit the steep rise and then reach a new plateau. You will then jump to the next S curve, until the cool new gear comes out or you get a great deal on something, like most of us here. Or alternatively, as we acquire to new tastes and experiences, we may get sick of the gear we have, and we may jump on a completely different set of s-curves, such as horns, headphones, etc.

Christensen97-40-1.jpg
 
Thank you caesar.

A very different but fascinating perspective.

My principal reason for switching speakers at this time is my frustration and inability to resolve the mid / low bass issues in my current set-up and my current speakers. I've been trying to resolve this for some three years plus.

Additional reasons include a very good price on the YG's along with the ability to trade in my MBL 116's, an easier load for my amplifier (powered sub), and the ability to address mid / low bass room interface issues with the "active" woofer adjustments on the Kipods. In my mind, pretty objective / reasonable criteria to justify the upgrade.

Keeping my fingers crossed since this will be the first "all box / traditional cone" speaker I've had in decades. :eek:

GG
 
Good Luck! Using the technology S Curve analogy above, you are jumping both up and onto a different S Curve. Most of us have all kinds of constraints: wives, money, real estate, etc., so I hope you reach that steep rising take-up part of the curve really fast.
 
caesar,

Thank you for your support.

I look forward to the journey with a healthy sense of uncertainty balanced with a personal confidence that I have made the correct decision moving forward.

GG
 
Of course I would say this but given the number of people I help with very nice equipment and poor sound it is for two channel systems the following: speaker/listener placement and room acoustics, in particular fixing the bass issues that 95% (99%?) of systems have.

By the time we are through the first round of major low hanging acoustic and placement issues I'd estimate the investment is between 5 and 20% of system cost but is a sonic difference of 100%++++ :)

The problem I often find is that many have no idea (no internal reference) of what 'good' sounds like. I'm not saying I have golden ears but after going to many people's homes you develop a sense of right and wrong. It's very quick for me to listen to something for 1 minute and pretty much have a quite accurate assessment of their room's acoustic issues (or system setup issues) which can then be validated scientifically through acoustic measurement and analysis.

Plus the audio review magazines both online and print have little interest in system setup or room acoustics, because they don't pay the bills through large ads. Instead many get sucked into the long process of equipment swapping that never really gets them to the end game, which is when they just sit down and listen to music without critically evaluating the negative aspects of their system and thinking on how it could be improved.
 
Musically satisfying systems don't need to be the latest or the greatest and they might not massage your little audiophile's ego either but they're all about pleasure. That's my approach to systems, fuss free listening and musical pleasure, return on investment is measured solely based on elevated levels of musical satisfaction and not by immaterial audiophile standards set by certain members of the media that have nothing to do with actual musical pleasure.

david

I'm with you. I finally figured out that no matter how much money I spent, I was never going to get "there" where "there" is the sound of live music in my home (the absolute sound). In fact, while each upgrade did get me "closer", I was still always miles and miles and miles and miles away. The very very best audio systems I have ever heard are awesome but not even close to a live performance.

So, I opted for "fun" and "entertaining" and that costs a lot less. I have enjoyed my current system more than any system I have ever owned and it costs (new) less than 1/10th of my most expensive system.

That said, I still enjoy listening to the very best systems in friend's homes and at shows.
 
I'm with you. I finally figured out that no matter how much money I spent, I was never going to get "there" where "there" is the sound of live music in my home (the absolute sound). In fact, while each upgrade did get me "closer", I was still always miles and miles and miles and miles away. The very very best audio systems I have ever heard are awesome but not even close to a live performance.

So, I opted for "fun" and "entertaining" and that costs a lot less. I have enjoyed my current system more than any system I have ever owned and it costs (new) less than 1/10th of my most expensive system.

That said, I still enjoy listening to the very best systems in friend's homes and at shows.

Actually its possible to get "there" and very close to the emotional connection and sonic impact of live performance by avoiding the absolute sound. The so called absolute sound is a misnomer, all about hifi and very little in common with music, that's why you're never done. Like a dog chasing its tail. Most of my clients are long term audiophiles with very expensive systems who find themselves in an unhappy place, absolute sound and zero musical satisfaction.

Enjoy the music!

david
 
Most of us have all kinds of constraints: wives, money, real estate, etc.

Even without the constraints imposed by real life, most of us would peg the point of diminishing returns at very different price levels.

There are a lot of people who see no value in spending any amount of money on audio reproduction. For them, anything more than the head phones they got with their cell phone represents an expense beyond the point of diminishing returns. There are plenty of audio enthusiasts who enjoy chasing better quality sound, but get their thrill from trying to do it as cheaply as possible. Some of the more popular vintage forums are full of these kind of audiophiles.

After numerous shows and listening to many other people's systems, I've found that, for me, the point of diminishing returns sits at right about $20k for a digital system (meaning CD and digital file playback. Analog playback is a whole different beast). I definitely hear improvements with more expensive gear, but at that price level I feel like the quality has moved past the point where I hear obvious deficiencies in the sound quality. I should also note that my current system doesn't even come close to that dollar amount, although I am working on getting better gear.

Obviously, there are a number of members here who would peg the point of diminishing returns at a much higher amount. Anyone with Wilson Audio Sashas or Alexias, let alone the higher models, has speakers valued higher than what I would spend on my entire system. I certainly don't begrudge them anything. We just value things differently.
 
Actually its possible to get "there" and very close to the emotional connection and sonic impact of live performance

Emotional connection with reproduced music? Very much so. Very close to that of a live performance? You must not listen to much live music.

The so called absolute sound is a misnomer, all about hifi and very little in common with music

Reproducing the sound of un-amplilfied music in real space does not = "hi-fi".

that's why you're never done.

Actually I am done.

Enjoy the music!

I do.
 
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As much as I enjoy my system, it is not close to the sound of a live event. I have yet to hear a system of any cost that does. I have heard a ton of stuff too.
 
I have yet to hear a system of any cost that does. I have heard a ton of stuff too.

In your life time you probably never will. It's a fun but expensive goal to chase if one is so inclined (I chased it for about 40 years !!)
 
I stopped chasing a long time ago too. Other than a DAC I could use with a computer which I purchased last year, the last piece of 2 channel gear I bought was 10 years ago when I sent my speakers in for an upgrade. I really enjoy the sound of my system and see no reason to chase after that last nth degree of improvement, which is unattainable anyway. I would rather spend that money on attending live music and adding to my collection.
 
Emotional connection with reproduced music? Very much so. Very close to that of a live performance? You must not listen to much live music.

I've gone to classical concerts regularly for most of my adult life and on occasion attend some jazz and rock venues too. Reproducing jazz or rock music close to live isn't difficult, of course if its in the recording. Its a lot more complicated with classical music but given the right room and equipment you'd be surprised how close you can get to natural reproduction of large orchestral pieces.

Reproducing the sound of un-amplilfied music in real space does not = "hi-fi".

We might be mincing words here but that's not my understanding of the phrase absolute sound. More like Sound A vs B vs C and someone's interpretation of it, little or nothing to do with reproducing a natural musical experience. The use of word Absolute is limiting under the best circumstances and ridiculous in this case when there are no absolutes. Even with the best concert halls where you sit will greatly change the balance of what you hear and alter the musical experience accordingly. Is there an Absolute place to sit? Is there an Absolute hall, music or orchestra? Personally I much prefer Natural Sound over absolute anything and that's the niche where I operate, fixing Absolute sounding systems.

david
 
Most of my clients are long term audiophiles with very expensive systems who find themselves in an unhappy place, absolute sound and zero musical satisfaction.

david

David,

Very sad. One has to wonder what motivates them to spend big coin and be constantly unhappy. What a tragic waste of time and money.

How do you deal with this type client knowing their preponderance to laying out cash absent enjoying music?

GG
 
Reproducing jazz or rock music close to live isn't difficult, of course if its in the recording.

We will have to agree to disagree. On my birthday 18 months ago, my wife hired a 3 piece jazz ensemble to play in our home. It was then that I realized I had been kidding myself. I too, thought that a home audio system could come close to reproducing a small jazz group. NOT EVEN CLOSE. IT MADE THE BEST AUDIO SYSTEMS I HAD EVER HEARD A JOKE WHEN COMPARED TO LIVE MUSIC. Just focusing on dynamics, it was not even close. A friend was in attendance at this party who has easily one of the best music reproduction systems I have ever heard. He, too, was depressed. Don't get my wrong. I love to listen to well recorded jazz. But close to live? Sorry, not in my experience.

We might be mincing words here but that's not my understanding of the phrase absolute sound

It was Harry Pearson's definition and I like it as well.

Its a lot more complicated with classical music but given the right room and equipment you'd be surprised how close you can get to natural reproduction of large orchestral pieces.

If we are 1,000 miles from live compared to a small jazz group, we are 100,000 miles from reproducing close to anything that sound like a live symphony orchestra.

We might be mincing words here but that's not my understanding of the phrase absolute sound. More like Sound A vs B vs C and someone's interpretation of it, little or nothing to do with reproducing a natural musical experience. The use of word Absolute is limiting under the best circumstances and ridiculous in this case when there are no absolutes. Even with the best concert halls where you sit will greatly change the balance of what you hear and alter the musical experience accordingly. Is there an Absolute place to sit? Is there an Absolute hall, music or orchestra? Personally I much prefer Natural Sound over absolute anything and that's the niche where I operate, fixing Absolute sounding systems.

david

I had season tickets to the Atlanta Symphony for over 25 years and sat all over the hall. Maybe if I was standing outside in the hallway with the door closed, I might be able to compare recorded to live, but anywhere in the auditorium, not even close. And I don't need my wife to hire a symphony orchestra to come to my home to validate that. Lastly, I sang in a 150 person choir for almost 30 years and we were accompanied by a relatively small orchestra (approximately 25 pieces). I will say it again: in my experience recorded music does not sound like live -- not even close.
 
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Geez, a 2 channel stereo can't even get the dynamics and sense of sound of a drum kit right let alone an orchestra. It is amazing how large and dynamic a set of drums is and how small they sound through an very expensive 2 channel rig. A three piece jazz combo, piano, drums and bass has a huge sound.
 

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