Cardas speaker cables & all the others

[bblue]

I'm currently using multi-bundle Litz speaker cables (7.5 awg equivalent) by Balanced Power Technologies. They seem very transparent and neutral, but on sources with some distortion (which is a large majority of POP music) tend to be pretty bright and edgy, at least on my B&W N801 speakers which are normally (on well recorded source) very pleasant and balanced. As there's a lot of POP music I enjoy listening to (along with oldies) it's a constant source of irritation having to turn down the volume just to tolerate the sound. Electronic distortion (equipment mis-use by studio engineers, lack of headroom, high IM distortion, etc.), really seem to jump out on these cables rather than being just part of the overall sound. Disproportionately, to my ears. On good source the soundstage is very detailed, and balanced from top to bottom. Individual instruments in the same acoustic range are clearly distinct from each other. The IC's in use at this time are Cardas Hexlink V balanced XLR's.

I stumbled upon some older Cardas Hexlink V speaker cables in the attic that I had used in the 90's and decided to try them as a comparison. They have a very 'colored' sound (different recordings tend to have a similar tonality) with what appears to be a LF 'bump' in bass response around 60-80Hz, but most importantly, the HF is decidedly subdued and tainted with what sounds a bit like playback head mis-alignment in a tape recorder. It has a 'pitch' to it that influences everything in the top two octaves. The soundstage is still pretty large and detailed, and it's definitely easier to listen to problem recordings, but on good recordings there's more of a 'distance' from the music and it's difficult to 'hear into'.

At first I figured it was just that these cables were old, and I was considering picking up a used set of Cardas Golden Reference cables. But as I researched these cables more I found many complaints from users about the Cardas coloration (some call it voicing). Some like it, others really don't -- at all.

So my question is about the sound of Cardas cables. Do they all have a distinct 'sound' to them in varying degrees like that I have described? Only those who have used many different types of cables on a high resolution system need respond. If all you have used is Cardas, you probably love them as it is a nice 'sound'. I really don't want to spend more money on cables that aren't significantly better than what I have.

Any thoughts or comments about this? I can't help but think I can do better than what I have... but at what price?

--Bill

 

[MylesBAstor]

Yes. But since they were sitting around, I'd let them play for 24 hrs and then relisten. Also I find the Cardas and most cables must be left still and uncoiled for around 50 hrs before listening. One characteristic that I hear with newly uncoiled cables is that the imaging and staging is fuzzy. YMMV.... And I'm sure others here will tell me I'm crazy or have I listened blind. You be the judge.

That said I try to find the most neutral cable out there eg. The one that works the most in all systems rather than one locks in with one system. The latter is great if you stick with one system but if you change,then you're always looking for new cables. Among the better ones I've had in my system and use as references are Transparent, MIT, Kubala-Sosna and Nordost. I also try to stay with Cu since I find that all the Ag cables have an edge and hyper detailing. Great maybe if you have a dark, slow system and need some get up and go. Again YMMV and why places like The Cable Co. That have a wide variety of experience with different cables and will lend cables for listening are a must!

 

[bblue]

Yes. But since they were sitting around, I'd let them play for 24 hrs and then relisten. Also I find the Cardas and most cables must be left still and uncoiled for around 50 hrs before listening. One characteristic that I hear with newly uncoiled cables is that the imaging and staging is fuzzy. YMMV.... And I'm sure others here will tell me I'm crazy or have I listened blind. You be the judge.

Absolutely right. The first few hours were pretty difficult listening to be sure. After about 24 hours of audio, they settled down quite a bit but still had the same general character. I'll give them another couple of days and see what happens. They weren't super expensive, as I recall. Even when I move the route of my Litz cables on their risers, it takes a few hours for the inner detail to return to normal.

That said I try to find the most neutral cable out there eg. The one that works the most in all systems rather than one locks in with one system. The latter is great if you stick with one system but if you change,then you're always looking for new cables. Among the better ones I've had in my system and use as references are Transparent, MIT, Kubala-Sosna and Nordost. I also try to stay with Cu since I find that all the Ag cables have an edge and hyper detailing. Great maybe if you have a dark, slow system and need some get up and go. Again YMMV and why places like The Cable Co. That have a wide variety of experience with different cables and will lend cables for listening are a must!

My Litz cables are 4N OFC comprised (I believe) of #28 bundles of individually enameled strands, with each bundle itself enameled, about 128 of them. I originally was using MIT-750's which (at the time, at least) seemed very bright in mid-range but pretty detailed. Then I moved to Transparent XL's (#2945) but found them rather confused -- meaning hazy with indistinct detail. They were very hard to mix tracks with. The Litz cables were a revelation of detail and depth compared to all the others. Unfortunately, I'm not quite convinced enough to pay $5k or more for reference cables. I haven't tried either of the other two you mentioned for that reason.

Neutrality is ultimately what I want, and it may be that the distortion by products I object to are always going to be overbearing in that scenario.

Thanks for the Cable Co. tip. I had forgotten about their lending service.

--Bill

 

[Bill Hart]

I used the Cardas Golden Reference shortly after I switched to the Avantgarde horns, in part because they were recommended by Jim Smith, who was the Avantgarde distributor and a guy with good ears. They sounded very good, open and wide range, but I think I improved the system considerably when I switched all cables to Kubala's cable (speaker, IC and power cords). I don't have experience using the Nordost, but from everything I've read, they can work the kind of magic you want: if you use their cables throughout and you let them break-in. My understanding is that they sound pretty bright until they have settled down, and also have a house sound, but that they share certain characteristics that enable you to use different grades of their line with success. Others who have hands-on experience can better advise. Used cable seems to be a sensible way to go, given the price on some of these suckers these days.

 

[bblue]

I used the Cardas Golden Reference shortly after I switched to the Avantgarde horns, in part because they were recommended by Jim Smith, who was the Avantgarde distributor and a guy with good ears. They sounded very good, open and wide range, but I think I improved the system considerably when I switched all cables to Kubala's cable (speaker, IC and power cords). I don't have experience using the Nordost, but from everything I've read, they can work the kind of magic you want: if you use their cables throughout and you let them break-in. My understanding is that they sound pretty bright until they have settled down, and also have a house sound, but that they share certain characteristics that enable you to use different grades of their line with success. Others who have hands-on experience can better advise. Used cable seems to be a sensible way to go, given the price on some of these suckers these days.

Bill, which series of the Kubala line did you end up using?

--Bill

 

[bblue]

I'm just past 48 hours of active run-in on these Hexlink speaker cables. Not really much change after 24 hours, though, except my ears/brain adjusting to how they sound (which is also part of the 'run-in' process). They're pleasing to listen to, but the tainted HF character is still very much there and still seems like it is hiding (or obscuring) detail. This allows me to listen to music I would not normally tolerate, but at the expense of detail and neutrality exposed in well recorded source.

The key question here is still pending; Do all Cardas speaker cables have this coloring as I've been reading? Anyone know?

--Bill

 

[Bill Hart]

Bill, which series of the Kubala line did you end up using?

--Bill

Emotion. I think it was one step below the top line at the time I bought them. They are very well made. And Joe Kubala is accessible and a nice fellow, i do not remember hearing any claims about the 'science' or 'technology' of them- i just tried them, and they did the trick.

 

[rbbert]

It's interesting how many Nordost "haters" post on the various Internet audiophile forums; are they somewhat like the Wilson "haters", who (it seems to me) feel a need to disparage a brand typically held in high esteem?

 

[garylkoh]

I have used many different speaker cables in what I would consider to be a high resolution system, so I guess I might venture a response.

In the Cardas line, the one I keep going back to are the Neutral Reference. I find them more natural than the Golden Reference. I also like the Tyr speaker cables (one down from Valhalla) from Nordost. From the requirements in your OP, those two would be the ones I would try.

 

[Lee]

I also like the Neutral Reference but I do prefer the Golden Reference. I initially did my whole system in GR including the power cable for my SACD player. Their rhodium maggie pins are the best I have seen.

 

[bblue]

I have used many different speaker cables in what I would consider to be a high resolution system, so I guess I might venture a response.

In the Cardas line, the one I keep going back to are the Neutral Reference. I find them more natural than the Golden Reference. I also like the Tyr speaker cables (one down from Valhalla) from Nordost. From the requirements in your OP, those two would be the ones I would try.

Gary, how would you describe the differences you hear between Clear and Golden Reference?

I can't help but think the Golden Reference would be one heck of a lot better than the Hexlink V I'm currently testing, if for nothing other than being twenty years newer. I have a pair of Golden References coming for evaluation so it'll be interesting to hear the difference. George Cardas is making big claims for the Clear, but he also did the same for the Golden Reference when it was his top cable...

Unfortunately, length requirements for both my speaker cables and XLR IC to the amp are 2.5m (8'), so the Tyr's are pretty pricey at that length.

--Bill

 

[garylkoh]

Bill, to me (speaker cables only) the Golden Reference sound a little too rich - like a Steinway suddenly grew a couple of inches and began to sound like a Bosendorfer, or a female singer got a little more busty. It's an effect that many people like, but as a loudspeaker designer, I could not live with.

However, please note that I'm an advocate of the correct interface between amplifier and loudspeaker - not bigger is better. I didn't think that the Clear worked with my speakers. You have a good amplifier and a speaker with a single 15" woofer and hence would need an appropriate interface, not just a bigger (more expensive) cable. Thus my suggestion of the Tyr and the Neutral Reference.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Thus my suggestion of the Tyr and the Neutral Reference.

Gary,
Do you have experience with the new Tyr 2 Loudspeaker Cable? Some people have suggested it is better balanced than the Valhalla.

 

[bblue]

Bill, to me (speaker cables only) the Golden Reference sound a little too rich - like a Steinway suddenly grew a couple of inches and began to sound like a Bosendorfer, or a female singer got a little more busty. It's an effect that many people like, but as a loudspeaker designer, I could not live with.

Well that's an interesting way to describe it.

However, please note that I'm an advocate of the correct interface between amplifier and loudspeaker - not bigger is better. I didn't think that the Clear worked with my speakers. You have a good amplifier and a speaker with a single 15" woofer and hence would need an appropriate interface, not just a bigger (more expensive) cable. Thus my suggestion of the Tyr and the Neutral Reference.

It's a little bit chicken and egg, though, isn't it? It's often difficult to separate the individual characteristics of speakers versus cables, so what's too rich for one speaker could be anemic with another. What becomes the yardstick? A cable that presents similar characteristics across a variety of speakers?

I tend to favor a cable that is a heavy equivalent gauge (9 awg or lower) comprised of multiple individually insulated/enameled small gauge conductors, for the overall size of presentation (independent of apparent response or character), combined with extremely deep and solid LF and clear delineated HF, especially space between sounds and inner detail of each represented sound (which brings width and depth with it). Combined, they make an extremely convincing presentation of electronic neutrality. The closest representation of the electronic recording whether it be digital, vinyl, tape, (notwithstanding the recording technique itself). I don't get into this 'does it sound live' business because that is so dependent on the recording technique. My BPT Litz cable does all that I described, but at the same time seems to be rather aggressive with certain types of recorded distortion.

If I did my calcs right, the Norse Tyr speaker cables are roughly 8-9 awg of individually insulated #22 strands, so would be a good contender according to my 'guidelines', though I might favor smaller individual strands.

Thanks for the suggestions.

--Bill

 

[garylkoh]

Gary,
Do you have experience with the new Tyr 2 Loudspeaker Cable? Some people have suggested it is better balanced than the Valhalla.

Sorry, no. I ended up designing my own cable for my purposes (development and shows), so I have not moved to their new "Leif" series - although the comparisons I've heard between the old and the new have shown quite a huge improvement. I felt that the Tyr and the Valhalla have different balance (in my experience) - hence I wouldn't recommend Valhalla to bblue as he's got a problem with bright and edgy music.

 

[Pierre]

I have for a long time been a Cardas "hater"......... I had the same issues as you, the where to colerfull in the sound, everything sounded the same.

But i have seen the light Cardas Clear!

They are mutch brigther in the sound than others Cardas cables, but not to bright/cold. And the dont coler the sound like GR or NR.
So now i`m using Cardas Clear speaker and interconectors on my Avalon, Hovland, Pass setup. And they are quit nice in my setup.

Pierre,
Denmark

 

[Lee]

Gary, how would you describe the differences you hear between Clear and Golden Reference?

I can't help but think the Golden Reference would be one heck of a lot better than the Hexlink V I'm currently testing, if for nothing other than being twenty years newer. I have a pair of Golden References coming for evaluation so it'll be interesting to hear the difference. George Cardas is making big claims for the Clear, but he also did the same for the Golden Reference when it was his top cable...

Unfortunately, length requirements for both my speaker cables and XLR IC to the amp are 2.5m (8'), so the Tyr's are pretty pricey at that length.

--Bill

I've tried Hexlink before. The Golden Reference is a lot better than Hexlink or the Quadlink I had before. Gary is right in that the GR is a bit on the warm side and not as open as some recent designs. But still a great cable overall imho.

 

[DaveyF]

I am still using a pair of Hex Golden 5C 's as an ic between my DAC and my preamp. This cable is VERY capable in the bottom end....BUT it also portray's what i feel is the Cardas house sound. Which, IMO is a slightly recessed sound combined with some loss in HF ability. I am going to be going with all Nordost, which is FAR more capable in all other areas, except maybe in the bottom end, which the Cardas does excel in.

 

[Lee]

I am still using a pair of Hex Golden 5C 's as an ic between my DAC and my preamp. This cable is VERY capable in the bottom end....BUT it also portray's what i feel is the Cardas house sound. Which, IMO is a slightly recessed sound combined with some loss in HF ability. I am going to be going with all Nordost, which is FAR more capable in all other areas, except maybe in the bottom end, which the Cardas does excel in.

Try the Clear first. It's a whole new ball game.

 

[DaveyF]

Lee, I'll try the Cardas Clear...If it can hold a candle to the Frey or Tyr, i will be very surprised....But thanks for the suggestion.