Basics please

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#1
Sorry if these are basics, but as a TT newbie, assume I was to enter the TT world by getting a good phono, like Thoress. And a good Koetsu or Ortofon Anna.

Now for TTs, if you look up the used section, a Goldmund Studio will be a 2k, Goldmund Reference at 20kish, a whole shebang of Kuzma XL4 with 4point tonearm, VTA and power supply used less than 20, and microseikis around 6 - 10k, not sure of models. There will be GPA and AMG v12.

So if I keep the Thoress and the cartridge a constant, what value am I getting jumping from a Goldmund studio to a Kuzma XL4 with 4 point?

Thanks in Advance
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#2
I am looking at it mainly for top 100 classical albums or so. And eventually land a big collection second hand. I have time. But worth starting research now
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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#3
Ked - value is in the ear of the beholder :)

Interested to hear what people have to say on this but there are lots of things you need to think about in terms of ownership. The Kuzma is current production so you can gain easier access to anything you might need in terms of spares - not that you'll need it for that bomb proof monster. The studio is no longer made to my knowledge and I don't know if there is a UK specialist to assist with any issues should you have any in particular with the arm. They use very different philosophies and you should listen to many tt's to help determine the traits that most appeal to you. I don't want to stereotype but certain designs tend to share traits. The Kuzma is using one of the very best arms available and will also allow you to use multiple arms should you wish to have that option. There is also build quality and pride of ownership - not sure whether these are important to you or not.

Anyway - if you can afford the Kuzma XL4 with a Koetsu and Thoress, I can't see you being disappointed! :D
 

bonzo75

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#4
I don't care for build quality and pride of ownership. Budget is about time. Goldmund studio is an easy decision, latter is a longer wait. I don't mind spending on the Thoress as it seems to be a final stop. If the Goldmund Studio works for even 3 years that's great, look at the value. But sonically how different inferior, if at all, would it be to the Kuzma?

Once can buy most things in hifi if one waits, trick is to know what the final destination is. I kind of know it with digital and speakers, I want to know it with TT
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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#5
I'm confused why the Thoress is a "final stop". I've heard it once I believe, and it's great, but there is a STACK of great phonos out there. Speak to Ron about his 4-chassis Aesthetix Io. This has been a SOTA choice for many over the years. Thoress v. good, but not exceptional above and beyond that i'm beware. Doesn't Greg of G Point stock them? He had one at Windsor.
Shouldn't you be additionally considering Lamm, Nat, Ypsilon, Tom Evans, Thrax etc?
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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#6
I don't care for build quality and pride of ownership. Budget is about time. Goldmund studio is an easy decision, latter is a longer wait. I don't mind spending on the Thoress as it seems to be a final stop. If the Goldmund Studio works for even 3 years that's great, look at the value. But sonically how different inferior, if at all, would it be to the Kuzma?

Once can buy most things in hifi if one waits, trick is to know what the final destination is. I kind of know it with digital and speakers, I want to know it with TT
I personally can't honestly help answer your question as I don't know the Studio to be able to answer this for you. The Kuzma XL is a final destination for many very lucky audiophiles though. I would see the Kuzma Stabi M or XL as a final destination for me or perhaps a sme 30/12 or Kronos pro. If I won the lottery, I would order an Airforce one without hesitation though.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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#7
I'm confused why the Thoress is a "final stop". I've heard it once I believe, and it's great, but there is a STACK of great phonos out there. Speak to Ron about his 4-chassis Aesthetix Io. This has been a SOTA choice for many over the years. Thoress v. good, but not exceptional above and beyond that i'm beware. Doesn't Greg of G Point stock them? He had one at Windsor.
Shouldn't you be additionally considering Lamm, Nat, Ypsilon, Tom Evans, Thrax etc?

Marc - I think he means in relation to value. The Thoress per £ punches very hard indeed. If it could stand next to the 4 chassis IO at one quarter (at least) the cost for example.
 

spiritofmusic

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#8
Marc - I think he means in relation to value. The Thoress per £ punches very hard indeed. If it could stand next to the 4 chassis IO at one quarter (at least) the cost for example.
Bill, OF COURSE it's one quarter the cost - it only has one quarter the number of chassis' LOL.
 

PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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#10
Once can buy most things in hifi if one waits, trick is to know what the final destination is. I kind of know it with digital and speakers, I want to know it with TT
I don't think there is a final destination with vinyl. Just ask your friend marc (Spiritofmusic). If there was, he would not be flirting with the Saskia II over his already excellent rim drive TransFi with linear tracking arm. In very general terms, I have found that better, but not necessarily more expensive, turntables do a better job of lowering noise levels. It becomes easier to hear more of the music, and it becomes more emotionally moving. There are fewer easily identifiable artifacts obscuring the sound. This is usually incremental, in matters of degree, but the better the turntable, the more extended it is, the quieter it is, the bigger the sound, the higher the resolution. Essentially, the more natural and believable it sounds.

My advice is to hear as many vinyl based systems as you can and contact people with experience with different types of tables. Things to consider: current or vintage, drive type, high/low mass, suspended or on isolation platform or neither. Number of arms. You could start with a lower cost table/arm/cartridge that sounds good and does little/no damage to the LPs. Discover if it is for you and experience what is involved with vinyl. Steve Williams is doing just that. He started at an extremely high level but is learning a lot, I am sure. Vinyl is a commitment and one that should not be taken lightly, but it can be extremely rewarding and bring you endless pleasure.

I have a good a good friend who knows my system very well. He decided to get into vinyl when I took my former SME Model 10 to his system and compared it to his digital. Ultimately, he decided to go in a different direction and over a few years managed to buy (all used) an SME V-12 arm, a Durand Telea I, an AirTight PC-1 Supreme, a Benz MR? and a near-mint Technics SP10MK3 with a Albert Porter Panzerholz plinth. We just assembled the parts and he now has a vinyl rig which will perform very well at a fairly reasonable cost.

I can't say if this is his final destination, but it is at the very least, a serious start.

You are right to ask lots of questions. Enjoy the process and learn as much as you can. Congratulations.
 
May 30, 2010
14,101
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Portugal
#11
Sorry if these are basics, but as a TT newbie, assume I was to enter the TT world by getting a good phono, like Thoress. And a good Koetsu or Ortofon Anna.

Now for TTs, if you look up the used section, a Goldmund Studio will be a 2k, Goldmund Reference at 20kish, a whole shebang of Kuzma XL4 with 4point tonearm, VTA and power supply used less than 20, and microseikis around 6 - 10k, not sure of models. There will be GPA and AMG v12.
(...)
Since you seem to leaning towards a Goldmund Studio perhaps you can consider the Audiomeca Pierre Lurne J 1? It is a more modern version of the Goldmund, designed by the same guy on the same principles and the famous black methacrylate and lead platter. Currently sold around 2-2.5 keuros in Europe.
 

jeromelang

New Member
Dec 26, 2011
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#12
When a conventional turntable is newly introduced into a system that previously haven't had one - careful listeners might notice something...

Soundstaging of digital playback shrinks.
Sound timbre has a harder edge.
Perhaps (depending on the setup) imaging may be perceived as coming more forward.

Take that turntable out of the listening room, and the sound goes back to the previous condition before the TT was inserted.

The changes will increase as the metallic count on the TT system goes up.


But as my ELP beats the emm lab TSDX/DAC2X for sheer enjoyment, it's the digital that has to leave the room if I wish to listen critically to vinyl. Heck! I even have to remove the 2 pieces of z-platforms on the zoethecus stand that the 2 Emmy sat on. I suspect that those zoethecus platforms have metallic stuff inside.


I now wish that I've bought the plastic bodied Tom Evans Groove phonostage instead of the full metal jacket pass labs aleph Ono...
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#13
Bill, OF COURSE it's one quarter the cost - it only has one quarter the number of chassis' LOL.
Marc, based purely on forum research, thoress seems to have been chosen over burmester, boulder, aesthtix io, arc ref 10 phonos, and Mike lavigne said it was better than his previous dartzeel (he hasn't compared it to his current one, also I don't remember his exact quote). Another preferred it to audio tekne. It is DHT based. At it's price, good enough for me even if the above comparisons were not true in all systems.

For me final destination means at a certain price point I am getting value much above that price point. I prefer the sonic qualities of used planars over Alexandria/Arrakis. Lampi over dCS stack. Thoress, though I have never heard it, seems to be priced to be one such component. There is a guy in London with a Thoress/Anna whom I am trying to get in touch with.
 
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bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#14
Since you seem to leaning towards a Goldmund Studio perhaps you can consider the Audiomeca Pierre Lurne J 1? It is a more modern version of the Goldmund, designed by the same guy on the same principles and the famous black methacrylate and lead platter. Currently sold around 2-2.5 keuros in Europe.
Thanks good advice. I am not leaning towards anything, I know too little to lean yet, if I lean I might topple :)
 
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bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#15
I owned the Thoress phono that was marketed under the TW Acustic banner, it wasn't bad,a bit noisy.
Keith.
In fact Mike L said it was quiet
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#16
Instead of getting into a Thoress vs other phono or Koetsu vs other carts debate, my question is if I fix up a good phono and cart, how much value add will I get going from a 2k used Goldmund Studio like TT to a used Kuzma XL4 (GPA Monaco, AMGv12, or whatever). That's what I need to answer myself finally, but will like to know thoughts. The other components will be fixed
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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#17
You're just not going to know Bonzo. No disrespect, but you can't easily bypass years of hit and miss and success experimentation by others, distilling thoughts into words, that anyone else can pick up on. Even you wouldn't have picked up on Lampi immediately, would have run thru a few rivals first. Analog is even trickier, the excellent choices are much more multitudinous than digital.
I know you are very much one who believes true near SOTA performance can be achieved at mid level prices (Lampi v Trinity/DCS etc, Nat v AR/Krell etc).
If bang for buck is a big consideration, and you want immediate jump factor, and fun in your life, my thought would be to seriously consider a modded/replinthed Garrard 301. This will be a similar philosophy to the Graz refurbished Apogees. Getting a propulsive, energetic sound, and shortcomings of the time successfully addressed by the modders. £5k-£10k will get you a WHOLE lot.
But as I said, this may not be the best way to do things, you may have to practice the time-honoured tradtion of trial and error.
 

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