Audiophile Guru Syndrome

Atmasphere

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May 4, 2010
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Audiophile Guru Syndrome is an ego-based thing that blinds audiophiles, in particular the one that has it.

Its something I've been on guard in myself for decades.

How it works has a prerequisite. One possibly suffering AGS has had some success with his stereo.

At some point though, hubris starts to have an influence. When things get to the point of actual AGS, the following symptoms can be seen:
1) Anything WRT matters audio issuing from the the individual is seen by that individual in such a way as it might have issued from the mouth of God. This is the 'guru' part.
2) Anything that conflicts, even if constructive criticism, will be seen as blasphemy.
3) Therefore tend to be a bit close-minded about different ideas they didn't create.

Now as many of you know, I'm a manufacturer. I'm also an audiophile, and my interest in music in general has led to a lifelong hobby that became a career. I've made a lot of mistakes along the way and I often feel like I've been wrong a lot more than I've been right. On that account, I try to keep my mouth shut on the internet unless I'm dead certain of what it is that I know (and not believe, as there is a distinction there). IOW, verifiable fact.

I went to engineering school at the UofM. To put myself through school, I worked at local consumer electronics repair shops (I started out in 1974 at the Allied Radio Shack service department). Somewhere along the line I got the idea on which I founded my company, so didn't take the engineering track that a lot of my classmates did.

I often find myself in a delicate situation. I really enjoy troubleshooting and so I've tried to help people and have been online doing that since the early 1990s. The delicate situation is that, as an EE and a manufacturer, I often really do know more than most of the people I try to help. But I have to be careful to not over do it, to not be a know it all. Decorum is important.

So how to deal with a situation where its clear that I know a lot more about how a system works than the person that own it? For me this is nothing new having been inside the innards of so many different bits of audio gear, as well as having designed such things and obtained pertaining patents. Every now and then I run into people that seem to think they know more about their equipment than I do even though its quite obvious they do not. I'm often tempted to tell them 'if you're so good at this, why not design the equipment from the ground up and show us all how its done?'. But right there is the nub of the matter. I don't want to be overbearing, but at the same time when I see misleading or outright false statements, something inside compels me to try to set the record straight.

An event like this happened just a few days ago. On that account, since it was online, I left the thread where it was obvious that if I persisted (more than I already had) I would be running afoul of my own concerns about getting AGS. It can rub off from others who have it.

The tricky bit about online forums is that we who indulge in them do not, for the most part, know the other players. I've found the best way to maintain decorum when people take pot shots at me is to not take things personally. If I don't know such individuals, have never met them and so they also don't know me, I've found it easy to deal with by not making their problems my problems. That doesn't work if I allow things to get personal.

This has been on my mind recently since I think I did take it personally in that last event. I'm not on these forums for any other reason than a love for music and to that end, audio.

For me its sort of like seeing someone prepare to shot themselves in the foot. I want to stop them hurting themselves. Now in audio its of course not so extreme, but you can spend a lot of money and time in this sport; and preventing people from making mistakes, or if they have already made them, helping them to make the best of it, does satisfy that goal.

But I get castigated for that. People make assumptions without knowing who I am that I'm only here to promote my products. If they did a search to see what sort of threads I respond to, they might not think that so much. For example last spring I was on this site helping someone through a refurbishment of an older ARC preamp which was successful.

Where I'm going with this is I'm actively trying to avoid having AGS. I find the people most likely to attack me likely already have a case of it (some of them I've had to put on ignore). One thing that is important to understand in all of this is human motivation. Most people might think the number one motivator might be money or happiness but its not. The biggest human motivator is to look good; failing that the 2nd biggest motivator is to not look bad.

That plays an enormous role on audio forums and pretty much drives politics.
 
Audiophile Guru Syndrome is an ego-based thing that blinds audiophiles, in particular the one that has it.

Its something I've been on guard in myself for decades.

How it works has a prerequisite. One possibly suffering AGS has had some success with his stereo.

At some point though, hubris starts to have an influence. When things get to the point of actual AGS, the following symptoms can be seen:
1) Anything WRT matters audio issuing from the the individual is seen by that individual in such a way as it might have issued from the mouth of God. This is the 'guru' part.
2) Anything that conflicts, even if constructive criticism, will be seen as blasphemy.
3) Therefore tend to be a bit close-minded about different ideas they didn't create.

Now as many of you know, I'm a manufacturer. I'm also an audiophile, and my interest in music in general has led to a lifelong hobby that became a career. I've made a lot of mistakes along the way and I often feel like I've been wrong a lot more than I've been right. On that account, I try to keep my mouth shut on the internet unless I'm dead certain of what it is that I know (and not believe, as there is a distinction there). IOW, verifiable fact.

I went to engineering school at the UofM. To put myself through school, I worked at local consumer electronics repair shops (I started out in 1974 at the Allied Radio Shack service department). Somewhere along the line I got the idea on which I founded my company, so didn't take the engineering track that a lot of my classmates did.

I often find myself in a delicate situation. I really enjoy troubleshooting and so I've tried to help people and have been online doing that since the early 1990s. The delicate situation is that, as an EE and a manufacturer, I often really do know more than most of the people I try to help. But I have to be careful to not over do it, to not be a know it all. Decorum is important.

So how to deal with a situation where its clear that I know a lot more about how a system works than the person that own it? For me this is nothing new having been inside the innards of so many different bits of audio gear, as well as having designed such things and obtained pertaining patents. Every now and then I run into people that seem to think they know more about their equipment than I do even though its quite obvious they do not. I'm often tempted to tell them 'if you're so good at this, why not design the equipment from the ground up and show us all how its done?'. But right there is the nub of the matter. I don't want to be overbearing, but at the same time when I see misleading or outright false statements, something inside compels me to try to set the record straight.

An event like this happened just a few days ago. On that account, since it was online, I left the thread where it was obvious that if I persisted (more than I already had) I would be running afoul of my own concerns about getting AGS. It can rub off from others who have it.

The tricky bit about online forums is that we who indulge in them do not, for the most part, know the other players. I've found the best way to maintain decorum when people take pot shots at me is to not take things personally. If I don't know such individuals, have never met them and so they also don't know me, I've found it easy to deal with by not making their problems my problems. That doesn't work if I allow things to get personal.

This has been on my mind recently since I think I did take it personally in that last event. I'm not on these forums for any other reason than a love for music and to that end, audio.

For me its sort of like seeing someone prepare to shot themselves in the foot. I want to stop them hurting themselves. Now in audio its of course not so extreme, but you can spend a lot of money and time in this sport; and preventing people from making mistakes, or if they have already made them, helping them to make the best of it, does satisfy that goal.

But I get castigated for that. People make assumptions without knowing who I am that I'm only here to promote my products. If they did a search to see what sort of threads I respond to, they might not think that so much. For example last spring I was on this site helping someone through a refurbishment of an older ARC preamp which was successful.

Where I'm going with this is I'm actively trying to avoid having AGS. I find the people most likely to attack me likely already have a case of it (some of them I've had to put on ignore). One thing that is important to understand in all of this is human motivation. Most people might think the number one motivator might be money or happiness but its not. The biggest human motivator is to look good; failing that the 2nd biggest motivator is to not look bad.

That plays an enormous role on audio forums and pretty much drives politics.
Beautiful writing and so true! One point I like to point without mentioning names the same mistakes and Super Audio Guru syndromes I have witnessed not only by Audiophiles but also by some designers, suppliers and audio engineers. I was sometimes shocked how less they know about tonality the tonal colors of instruments and have a total distorted perspective on what the actual dynamic representation should be. Ofcourse there are also designers in the audio scene who have a good understanding of tonality and dynamics but I am not sure if those are in the majority....?
 
General comment. Telling someone "you know best" or "you are right", regardless of evidence to the contrary, is all about ego and lack of self confidence. A definite sign of flawed character. Too much of that happening these days and results in our collective inability to effectively communicate with each other.
 
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I often find myself in a delicate situation. I really enjoy troubleshooting and so I've tried to help people and have been online doing that since the early 1990s. The delicate situation is that, as an EE and a manufacturer, I often really do know more than most of the people I try to help. But I have to be careful to not over do it, to not be a know it all. Decorum is important.
This is exactly why so so so many audiophile friends are turned off by the so-called “objectivist” voices/forums: they lack all decorum and are even mean spirited sometimes. Contrary to what they think, it is not a lack of respect for science, but a lack of respect for disrespect and know-it-all-ness…. Interestingly, I find that at least online the reverse snobbery is more pronounced—i.e., only stupid people spend lots of money on what is the same as cheap Chifi (you know the spiel).
 
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The audio hobby is full of people who know everything lol.

But the worst snobs/ gurus i have come across in the high end audio bizz were certain audio dealers

Inventing some sort of " sonic truth " based on the portfolio they re allowed to put together mostly driven by opportunity/ commercial reasons
 
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I often find myself in a delicate situation. I really enjoy troubleshooting and so I've tried to help people and have been online doing that since the early 1990s. The delicate situation is that, as an EE and a manufacturer, I often really do know more than most of the people I try to help. But I have to be careful to not over do it, to not be a know it all. Decorum is important.

Yes, decorum is important. Sometimes it seems like you don't perceive how you may come across to others when injecting yourself into a discussion. This is not about how much more you know than others, it's more interpersonal.

I'll give you an example. There have been several discussions about SET amps. You jumped into these dialogs to tell everyone that SET amps don't do bass very well. You say you want to correct misperceptions and you give technical information to support your point that most do not understand. I believe your intentions are honorable but you can imagine some don't like lecturing or continual correction. This has nothing to do with who knows what. By claiming a particular design typology is weak in a certain way some people will interpret this as dissing products they own, whether you think you are doing that or not. This is but one example, there are others.

Since you are manufacturer and a dealer, criticism of certain products and approaches, however generic, will be perceived by some as promotion of other products and approaches even if you do not mention those.

I gave you a suggestion on how to avoid avoid interpersonal agitation. Again this is not about who knows the most. Instead of correcting others in discussion, get your message across in a different way. For example: start your own thread: "SET amps don't do bass very well and here's why". That way you are not going into what you want to say by approaching the topic as a correction of another person or another's claim. It allows you to teach proactively without the risk of offending.
 
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I think conversations would be more meaningful and respectful if we were able to actually meet each other in person more often than is usually the case today. Once folks meet in person then most of the intenet nasty's and audiophile syndrome's tend to vanish. That said, I'm not sure any one group has the monopoly on being afflicted with AGS. I think as many of us spend more and more money and time in the hobby we tend to think we know best ...

There are a lot of different flavors of gear out there because people have preferences. One person loves tubes, another solid state, another balanced equipment and another states single ended in the only true path ...another horns, another ribbons, and heaven forbid anyone actually love Wilson speakers on this forum! :)

Personally I really enjoy reading about what others like and why. Sometimes it resonates with me and I want to go hear some new product for myself. Sometimes it doesn't but that doesn't make that persons choice any less valid. I have a friend locally and we couldn't be more different on what we think sounds great. Does either system represent sonic truth? As different as our two systems sound if either is more correct then the other is completely wrong and we have both spent a fortune on these systems. That said we both visit with each other and can appreciate what the other has built because we both understand while his system isn't my cup of tea .. it is his. And at the end of the day that's really all that matters .. that your system helps you enjoy music to the maximum extend it can. And getting back to my original statement .. because we are friends first and foremost ... there is total respect between us. We talk, we listen, but never are afflicted with any of the internet syndrome's ...

I go to the Soutwest Audio show every year and will be heading to the Florida audio show this coming year as well. Looking forward to meeting as many folks in person as I can and limiting the spread of AGS!

Cheers!

George
 
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I think the ones with the worst AGS are Audiophiles who think that they know better than the designer/manufacture of the product.
 
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Instead of correcting others in discussion, get your message across in a different way. For example: start your own thread: "SET amps don't do bass very well and here's why". That way you are not going into what you want to say by approaching the topic as a correction of another person or another's claim. It allows you to teach proactively without the risk of offending.

I like this suggestion.
 
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This is exactly why so so so many audiophile friends are turned off by the so-called “objectivist” voices/forums: they lack all decorum and are even mean spirited sometimes.
There is a lot of that kind of petulance going around...
Contrary to what they think, it is not a lack of respect for science, but a lack of respect for disrespect and know-it-all-ness…. Interestingly, I find that at least online the reverse snobbery is more pronounced—i.e., only stupid people spend lots of money on what is the same as cheap Chifi (you know the spiel).
Interestingly, in his book Sound Reproduction — an opus much revered in objectivist circles, and an objectively excellent work — Floyd Toole (with Sean Olive and Todd Welti) notes that “listeners are the final judges of what constitutes good sound (…) so it is worth trying to understand what they are hearing.” (That’s from memory, not a literal quote.)

In other words, even if a particular measurement suggests that Device X should provide all the sound quality anyone could need, it’s still important to consider why some listeners choose something else — and what they’re actually hearing that leads them to that preference.

Circling back to @Atmasphere’s example about SETs and bass: instead of debating whether SET amps “have bass” or not, an alternative approach is simply to ask SET users whether they’re satisfied with the bass they’re getting — and take the conversation from there.
 
Given the acrimony that sometimes surfaces, I find this conversation refreshing. Ralph makes some excellent points, as does Peter, who has considerable listening experience and is very happy with his Lamm Set amplifiers. In terms of whether SET amplifiers will work well in the bass region, my experience is that it is dependent on the loudspeaker being driven
 
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Yes, decorum is important. Sometimes it seems like you don't perceive how you may come across to others when injecting yourself into a discussion. This is not about how much more you know than others, it's more interpersonal.

I'll give you an example. There have been several discussions about SET amps. You jumped into these dialogs to tell everyone that SET amps don't do bass very well. You say you want to correct misperceptions and you give technical information to support your point that most do not understand. I believe your intentions are honorable but you can imagine some don't like lecturing or continual correction. This has nothing to do with who knows what. By claiming a particular design typology is weak in a certain way some people will interpret this as dissing products they own, whether you think you are doing that or not. This is but one example, there are others.

Since you are manufacturer and a dealer, criticism of certain products and approaches, however generic, will be perceived by some as promotion of other products and approaches even if you do not mention those.

I gave you a suggestion on how to avoid avoid interpersonal agitation. Again this is not about who knows the most. Instead of correcting others in discussion, get your message across in a different way. For example: start your own thread: "SET amps don't do bass very well and here's why". That way you are not going into what you want to say by approaching the topic as a correction of another person or another's claim. It allows you to teach proactively without the risk of offending.
The problem there is SETs really do have a problem with bass, whether I say so or not! That is a simple fact and can't be gotten around. Its something that you can see attempts to deal with it in legacy designs; this has been known for about 90 years or so. One attempt to deal with the problem is a kind of SET known as a parafeed, which uses a coupling capacitor and choke plate load to couple to the output transformer. This eliminates the need for a gapped core in the output transformer since there's no DC current. But the coupling cap between the power tube and the output transformer introduces its own problems.

Now I understand why people like SETs. The rich 2nd harmonic distortion is beguiling. I don't have a problem with that (but I think its a good idea people know why the amps sound the way they do). I understand that people aren't going to get rid of them just on my say so, nor have I encouraged people to do so.

Instead, I've pointed out the simple solution and the benefit they will gain from employing it (install a small capacitor in series with the input to roll off the bass). As I pointed out elsewhere IIRC that is what Ron did with his 'Italians'. Its not hard, its not expensive and the result is immediately apparent.

Do you think I should just be quiet and not offer this sort of advice? From my perspective it appears that people often buy SETs thinking they are an end all solution, when (if they want to get the most out of the investment) that simply isn't true.

And yes, after laying down the serious cash some SETs cost, I am sure that a lot of people don't want to hear that it wasn't the best investment. There's a certain confirmation bias that is going on. There are certain sports cars in the past that were really fun to drive, but if you didn't pay a lot of attention to the fact that the cylinder head could easily warp you could have a real disaster on your hands. Imagine telling someone who is the new proud owner of a vehicle like that being told to watch out for that tendency. The right thing is being done, but the owner might not react very well.

I did start a thread like you suggested. It got a few likes and no other activity. The message obviously isn't going to get out that way. I don't mind the slings and arrows so much, but what got me this last time is someone who clearly didn't know anything about design being upset by me (someone who did) simply telling the truth of the matter. His comment in that regard was IMO ridiculous.

instead of debating whether SET amps “have bass” or not, an alternative approach is simply to ask SET users whether they’re satisfied with the bass they’re getting — and take the conversation from there.
Its a lovely idea which I have done FWIW. That actually lead to a conversation about how important it is to have bass response below 40Hz (I maintain it is), which sounded like a bit of defensive justification to me... I even had some people challenge me on that, people who clearly listen to classical music, where there's a lot of information going on in the bottom octave.

So from my perspective, this is a matter of knowing what you know, knowing what you don't know, and finally, the important bit which is blind spot for all of us, not knowing about what you don't know.

How this plays out in practice, IOW how it applies to the situation with SETs and bass, is simply not realizing how much information is really down there and how that affects your response to the music, having never heard the recording on a system that can actually reproduce it.

That might not be always the case. Some will know their system doesn't play the bottom octave and they're OK with that; they accept it and are satisfied. In the case of such an individual, its still a good idea to limit the bass going into the amp as the result will be greater enjoyment. Put another way, if your speaker doesn't do the bottom octave and the amp doesn't do the bottom octave, why send that information to them? If the bass gets to the woofer it will just flop around and if the bass gets to the amp it will make a lot more distortion, which is audible as less clarity/transparency and less authority.
 
The problem there is SETs really do have a problem with bass, whether I say so or not! That is a simple fact and can't be gotten around. Its something that you can see attempts to deal with it in legacy designs; this has been known for about 90 years or so. One attempt to deal with the problem is a kind of SET known as a parafeed, which uses a coupling capacitor and choke plate load to couple to the output transformer. This eliminates the need for a gapped core in the output transformer since there's no DC current. But the coupling cap between the power tube and the output transformer introduces its own problems.

Now I understand why people like SETs. The rich 2nd harmonic distortion is beguiling. I don't have a problem with that (but I think its a good idea people know why the amps sound the way they do). I understand that people aren't going to get rid of them just on my say so, nor have I encouraged people to do so.

Instead, I've pointed out the simple solution and the benefit they will gain from employing it (install a small capacitor in series with the input to roll off the bass). As I pointed out elsewhere IIRC that is what Ron did with his 'Italians'. Its not hard, its not expensive and the result is immediately apparent.

Do you think I should just be quiet and not offer this sort of advice? From my perspective it appears that people often buy SETs thinking they are an end all solution, when (if they want to get the most out of the investment) that simply isn't true.

And yes, after laying down the serious cash some SETs cost, I am sure that a lot of people don't want to hear that it wasn't the best investment. There's a certain confirmation bias that is going on. There are certain sports cars in the past that were really fun to drive, but if you didn't pay a lot of attention to the fact that the cylinder head could easily warp you could have a real disaster on your hands. Imagine telling someone who is the new proud owner of a vehicle like that being told to watch out for that tendency. The right thing is being done, but the owner might not react very well.

The answer of SET owners to all that will be pointing out the lack of crossover distortion. But that of course has been discussed already as well.
 
Ok, how about this.
Ever since I got my Arya Audio Airblades to augment my Zus, I've been told that they *can't* work, either as specified/advertised, indeed at all.
Not that people are skeptical they'll like them.
But that's it's not possible to like them.
To even live with them for more than the first bar of music.
Certainly not to give them house room.
And not the merest curiosity to hear them.
Is this guru mode from these people?
 
Ralph audio forums are quit simple .

(If you want to stay out of trouble )

Dont critizise below subjects and life is breeze :) :

Sets
Horns
Expensive cables .
Stay neutral regarding digital versus analogue
Also, never say something good about WA. Mentioning Wilson speakers not in negative context will certainly trigger the Guru appearance.
 
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