Audiophile Fundamentalism

You're a braver man than I, jack. I not only avoid early adoption, I avoid buying from companies that are early adopters. Now, mind you, I believe companies and products can be innovative without being early adopters of basic technologies. They can take the new tech that has been tested in its early, less refined form, refine it, ready it for useful purpose and fine tune it for user interaction and release something much better more useful, more functionally innovative than the original. Apple is a perfect example of this kind of company. They didn't invent the smart phone, but they defined the category. I look for those kinds of companies in all the things for which I have any enthusiasm.

Tim

Not brave, more exuberant at that period in time perhaps but not brave. My past profession was extremely high stress. Radio interviews at 5am when I'd gone to bed just two hours before. I carried a whole lot of "OPP", Other People's Problems. Audio was my main outlet, both tinkering and listening. Eventually I gravitated towards tried and true technology with an emphasis on improved implementation. My main DAC now is a unique spin on NOS, my turntable, in essence, a modern day version of a tried and tested classic. I like classic, simple tube circuits with 21'st century power supplies. As for speakers, I found a designer whose philosophy matches my own and I have stayed with his brand and am going on my 7th pair, hopefully my last in my main room. That same philosophy is carried by my turntable's designer. In his words, the removal of "character", what I think of as "distractions", what most people call signature colorations. A house sound that is paradoxically an absence of the same. I'm not saying that that's ben achieved but it is the goal and in the here and now, achieved to IMO a high degree based on how I've found them to be more chameleon than king of the jungle.

I tuned two dance clubs with digital XO and EQ, I'm working on a restaurant/bar now that will also use the same technology. Still, I think there is a divide between pro and specialized domestic electronics and that divide is not one of technology per se but rather one of emphasis on the common technology's application. The former has its emphasis on specific utility and efficiency dictated heavily by price constraint wrought by intense competition. The latter molded around expectations from a tightly defined market segment with less economic constraints via greater upward price elasticity.
 
Still, I think there is a divide between pro and specialized domestic electronics and that divide is not one of technology per se but rather one of emphasis on the common technology's application.

I'm trying to figure out the scenario where Devialet is revolutionary but Lake Processing and their extremely advanced EQ would probably only merit 'Meh'.

Same goes for BSS.
 
Lab.Gruppen or TC Electronics as a whole would not get a "Meh" from me but in a domestic setting, what would you mount and run Lake P on and how would you integrate it? If they had an accompanying headless 17" or even 19" hardware solution with domestic standard reference voltages, it could easily go against the likes of DEQX. The home is not their market, it just isn't at this time. I don't even think they are trying to license it out.

As for BSS, it's Harman's call. As it stands I believe domestic has been left to the JBL and Lexicon Groups. Never say never.
 
Lab.Gruppen or TC Electronics as a whole would not get a "Meh" from me but in a domestic setting, what would you mount and run Lake P on and how would you integrate it? If they had an accompanying headless 17" or even 19" hardware solution with domestic standard reference voltages, it could easily go against the likes of DEQX. The home is not their market, it just isn't at this time. I don't even think they are trying to license it out.

As for BSS, it's Harman's call. As it stands I believe domestic has been left to the JBL and Lexicon Groups. Never say never.

JBL is certainly not just domestic use. Thier Everest and Synthesis lines are seriously large format professional theater. You could try using them at home :)

I would mount it like I would any other boutique offering. In a rack. Most of the Lab / BSS stuff IS headless. It has Ethernet and you access it via their matrix routing software. DEQX is no more a pro or consumer piece then Lab / BSS.

I would integrate it like I would any other sound processor or speaker management system. From a Behringer DCX2496 to BSS to LAB to 8 channels of Crown I would integrate pretty much the same.

Carvin even has a recent offering with 4 channels of fully DSP controlled amplification for less than $700.

Crown's HiQnet I've been in and it's awesome. It's not Harmans call. Anyone can integrate BSS, AKG, JBL, Crown, Levinson, Lab, etc.

How does Lab, or BSS know they are in a home setup? This is the type of talk I can't stand from the Audiophile 'Professionals'.

When I hear something like 'had an accompanying headless 17" or even 19" hardware solution with domestic standard reference voltages' REALLY? 'domestic standard reference voltages'?
 
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I've never seen any of the boxes. As you probably already know, consumer ref voltage is about a quarter of pro's. Some pro units can output consumer -10dBv with a provided selector but not all.

Oh and what do you mean by Audiophile "professionals"? More specifically, what are the quotation marks for? I use professional equipment for professional work and consumer equipment for home use. Mastering is the rare intersection and I am not a mastering engineer. The basic difference is the reference voltage for gain stages. A much bigger problem than impedance matching that gets so much attention.
 
Not brave, more exuberant at that period in time perhaps but not brave. My past profession was extremely high stress. Radio interviews at 5am when I'd gone to bed just two hours before. I carried a whole lot of "OPP", Other People's Problems. Audio was my main outlet, both tinkering and listening. Eventually I gravitated towards tried and true technology with an emphasis on improved implementation. My main DAC now is a unique spin on NOS, my turntable, in essence, a modern day version of a tried and tested classic. I like classic, simple tube circuits with 21'st century power supplies. As for speakers, I found a designer whose philosophy matches my own and I have stayed with his brand and am going on my 7th pair, hopefully my last in my main room. That same philosophy is carried by my turntable's designer. In his words, the removal of "character", what I think of as "distractions", what most people call signature colorations. A house sound that is paradoxically an absence of the same. I'm not saying that that's ben achieved but it is the goal and in the here and now, achieved to IMO a high degree based on how I've found them to be more chameleon than king of the jungle.

I tuned two dance clubs with digital XO and EQ, I'm working on a restaurant/bar now that will also use the same technology. Still, I think there is a divide between pro and specialized domestic electronics and that divide is not one of technology per se but rather one of emphasis on the common technology's application. The former has its emphasis on specific utility and efficiency dictated heavily by price constraint wrought by intense competition. The latter molded around expectations from a tightly defined market segment with less economic constraints via greater upward price elasticity.

Hey, Jack, nice to hear a bit about your history & glad you have lessened the OPP side of life - it can be very stressful
I'm interested in your NOS DAC - can you tell us anything about it?
 
Hi John,

I use a Light Harmonic Da Vinci. It "cascades" rather than oversamples. I think Larry can give a much better explanation than I can. In my bedroom, I'm back to using my simplest of DACs, a 47 Labs Shigaraki. It's not the most dynamic or extended but I really dig the texture. Nice for just chilling out. :)
 
I've never seen any of the boxes. As you probably already know, consumer ref voltage is about a quarter of pro's. Some pro units can output consumer -10dBv with a provided selector but not all.

Oh and what do you mean by Audiophile "professionals"? More specifically, what are the quotation marks for? I use professional equipment for professional work and consumer equipment for home use. Mastering is the rare intersection and I am not a mastering engineer. The basic difference is the reference voltage for gain stages. A much bigger problem than impedance matching that gets so much attention.

I mean a professional would know that balanced output of +4dBu isn't relegated to pro use just like -10dBv isn't relegated to consumer use.

Put the right person in charge in setup of a serious enthusiasts audio chain and it could go either way. They wouldn't go in with your above as a mindset. Correct me if I am reading your posts incorrectly insofar.

I know one can be more 'prevalent' but that is all that it is. I wouldn't expect a Sony HTIB to feature XLR/TRS/Phoenix connectors any more than I would expect a Sony HTIB to be a serious mainline system for an enthusiast.
 
Monk,

Again, I have nothing against pro. I was not the guy that set the standards, I am simply one of the thousands that abide by them. Anybody with the will and know how can eventually fit a square peg into a round hole. That isn't and was never my point. They are two separate industries. That is fact. If you have issues with that, I'm not the guy to beat up on. Not that you could if you wanted to. Even if you could, dude, in the scheme of things, I'm a nobody.
 
Monk,

Again, I have nothing against pro. I was not the guy that set the standards, I am simply one of the thousands that abide by them. Anybody with the will and know how can eventually fit a square peg into a round hole. That isn't and was never my point. They are two separate industries. That is fact. If you have issues with that, I'm not the guy to beat up on. Not that you could if you wanted to. Even if you could, dude, in the scheme of things, I'm a nobody.

I'm not beating up anyone.

You said:
I think there is a divide between pro and specialized domestic electronics and that divide is not one of technology per se but rather one of emphasis on the common technology's application.

How is the question I am asking. I still haven't seen your view point substantiated in any form or function that you are seemingly speaking too.

Since DEQX was mentioned, and I have heard their past two generation of product plus their newest speaker management system which also sports balanced outputs, Why is it better for user X or user Y over Lake or BSS? These are all speaker management systems that are just as relevant in the home, the mixing studio, or live and tour sound.

They are all great products with their adherents.
 
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I never said DEQX was better. In fact I said Lab.Gruppen could give 'em a run for the money IF they made a consumer version.
 
Lab and BSS can already give them a run for their money.

I've played with all three. For a professional installer, which is the way they all should be set up to get the most out of them, they are all consumer ready.

Is there anything about BSS or Lake that preclude it from being used in a consumer setting?
 
I wish there were more MCH DACs with analog input and proper volume control. Software is a much better way of doing the DSP needed for these systems. I can't think of a single MCH DAC with analog input and proper volume control, other than maybe a Lynx Hilo.

I do think there's huge overlap between pro and consumer audio gear. When it comes to DACs the differences are minimal other than functionality. The folks who use DSP to calibrate MCH systems and speakers, the more of a need there will be for "pro" gear.


Lab and BSS can already give them a run for their money.

I've played with all three. For a professional installer, which is the way they all should be set up to get the most out of them, they are all consumer ready.

Is there anything about BSS or Lake that preclude it from being used in a consumer setting?
 
Lab and BSS can already give them a run for their money.

I've played with all three. For a professional installer, which is the way they all should be set up to get the most out of them, they are all consumer ready.

Is there anything about BSS or Lake that preclude it from being used in a consumer setting?

No but consumer digital I/O (aside from or in lieu of AES3) would be a consumer friendly start.
 
I wish there were more MCH DACs with analog input and proper volume control. Software is a much better way of doing the DSP needed for these systems. I can't think of a single MCH DAC with analog input and proper volume control, other than maybe a Lynx Hilo.
Yes!

One problem is the Redbook specs look for 4 Volts output... you really have to wonder what they were thinking! There is not an amplifier made that would not be doing hard clipping with that sort of input, so you have to knock the signal level down, which doesn't help the signal out. They should have stayed with the 1 volt spec that all consumer line level sources had prior.
 
No but consumer digital I/O (aside from or in lieu of AES3) would be a consumer friendly start.

I think in the 'Audiophile circles' this can be forgiven. We aren't talking about joe consumer at Best Buy.

BTW you can configure most if not all BSS speaker management products with S/PDIF in.

Lake is AES/EBU and Dante. AES is super easy to integrate in a consumer system.
 
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I think in the 'Audiophile circles' this can be forgiven. We aren't talking about joe consumer at Best Buy.

BTW you can configure most if not all BSS speaker management products with S/PDIF in.

Lake is AES/EBU and Dante. AES is super easy to integrate in a consumer system.

Well for one, there's nothing to forgive but really Joe at Best Buy isn't the only one running a single ended system. Contrast that with any professional spec'd installation where you could drop 'em in anywhere in the world.
 
Well for one, there's nothing to forgive but really Joe at Best Buy isn't the only one running a single ended system. Contrast that with any professional spec'd installation where you could drop 'em in anywhere in the world.

I agree. Not all systems are the same. It still doesn't preclude my taking issue with what I think someone making a pretty blanket statement as it pertained to one standard being solely in the consumer and another in the 'pro-audio' space.

I still haven't heard why BSS or Lake or Xilica or AKG etc... can't be in the consumer space. Lack of S/PDIF simply isn't a good enough reason.

For me personally my next setup will be an based on a speaker management system and custom speaker from the ground up. Fed by AES/EBU.

It will be a system based in the home, utilizing in part, 'Pro-Audio' equipment.
 
I never said it couldn't be made to work. They DO have to be made to work. These are two separate industries with different market demands. Surely you don't take exception with that. Let me put it this way. Let's even take away things such as aesthetics. It's really easy to simply remove rack ears. If you were BSS, Lake or any of the companies you mentioned and you wanted to enter the consumer space. Would you or would you not adjust to the broader market? Would you enter offering the exact same product? This goes back to my post that you quoted where I said it was the SAME technology applied with different emphasis. Perhaps it is you that has read too much into what I've said.
 
This goes back to my post that you quoted where I said it was the SAME technology applied with different emphasis. Perhaps it is you that has read too much into what I've said.

That is fair enough. May be Pass Labs should have a $600 class A mono-block because $11K / channel for amplification isn't any more consumer friendly and both Pass Labs and Lab/BSS/Xilica would say they are built for performance and if you want it, to use your phrase, They DO have to be made to work.

Whether that be budget made to work or setup. It still doesn't preclude the consumer space in either instance. Only that it's more vertically applied.
 

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