Arrakis 2

LL21

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
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Hi Lloyd,

My understanding is that the active crossover for the Arrakis is only used to drive the sidemounted bass drivers. The midbass, midrange and tweeter have their own internal passive crossover inside the Arrakis. Have I misunderstood this.

An option for me would be a pair of active mono 3-way FM Acoustics Resolution Series crossovers to handle the Arrakis and Wilson active crossover points. Other options would be DEQX or Trinnov digital crossovers with built-in room compensation and speaker compensation.

All the best,
Roysen
Hi Roysen,

Yes, on Arrakis 2 I believe you are correct. Regarding the Sub, I would be inclined to use the FMA crossover for the Wilson Thors...PROVIDING it has all the adjustments you would want for bass (frequency, volume, phase, etc), and also was stereo so you could send L and R outputs from 1 single active crossover. Plus if there is anything to the idea of having FM preamp to FM crossover ('synergy') then at least you have that as well.
 
May 30, 2010
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Portugal
(...) 1. I would ask Andy Payor. (...)
Long and loud applause!

IMHO at this level of performance you risk compromising the performance of the whole system with an inadequate added bass solution.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Long and loud applause!

IMHO at this level of performance you risk compromising the performance of the whole system with an inadequate added bass solution.
if you want an uber speaker system with uber bass capabilities you need to look at a completely integrated twin tower approach......emphasis on no compromise integration with considerable room adjustability already on board and not grafted on.

I realize it tempting to stay with the sexy brands with high cache' and try to combine and cobble together disparate pieces. but the odds of hitting the mark with all these pieces is quite remote. and the costs of trying are daunting.

it's like trying to win F1 with pieces from different cars fitted together. it's the cohesion and balance of the whole design where the magic happens.....the pieces are important but not the main thing.

you need to be able to travel and hear the system you are buying actually playing music. and not reinvent the wheel for $300k+ commitment.....or you will chase your tail a good bit.....and end up sh*t canning the bits that are not cohesive and settling for what the cohesive parts will do properly.
 
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jfrech

VIP/Donor
Sep 3, 2012
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I have to agree with Mike Lavigne, KeithR and Microstrip...

The Arrakis have considerable bass extension on their own...I've heard them many times. My Rockport Altairs are wonderful in the bottom end...sometimes less is more...
 
Jan 23, 2011
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I agree as well , the best would be if you could get all the systems you mentioned at least for a month in your own room :p
Your room is also your family room so i suppose it is not ideal to get such high quality components singing to their full potential .
Best would be to gather as much listening information on the componts as you can .
I would personally contact the speaker manufacturer on the loudspeakers i would want and have him guide you a little i think that could be of a big help.
Or have a specialized dealer help you there are some very knowledgeable people in the industry which are very good systembuilders and have a lot off expirience what would work or not work in different rooms
 

Roysen

New Member
Aug 6, 2011
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I certainly agree with you guys on this, but there are some issues that I need to get out in the open to explain my choices.

First of all I live in a small country far up in the north of Europe. None of the three chosen speaker manufacturers have a local distributor and the dealers present locally doesn't have the knowledge to guide a buyer in this league. I can certainly understand that these manufacturers don't make a priority to have local distribution or high knowledge present in such a small market as my local market. The solution the manufacturers present to me to solve this is to invite me to their factory or to a distributor/dealer closer to me with great knowledge. This would have been a great solution if it was not for my health situation. At the moment I am not mobile outside a diameter of about 100 kilometers. So i am pretty much stuck here without the possibility of the desired auditions.

Concerning Rockport I am pretty confident about my choice since a friend owns the Altair and I have had the opportunity to audition them. From earlier systems I have owned I also know I have an addiction for the midbass and lower midrange energy provided by the Arrakis. So that speaker is a safe choice in my mind. The challenge arises when I also know my addiction for sub 10Hz bass that Arrakis can not provide. A need for extending the bass is then presenting itself.

I have already been in contact with Andy about this. I explained my need for a sub 10Hz bass solution with the Arrakis 2. He told me to try the Arrakis 2 first and if I still feel like extending the bass below 10Hz he would allow a discussion of a custom solution.

My reasoning behind choosing the Wilson Thor's Hammer had nothing to do with sexy brand names. The Thor's Hammer solution is very easy to dettach from this system and sell at any time withiut causing any compromise to the main system. That would be very different with a custom Rockport bass solution. Since my health does not allow me to go anywhere to audition the alternatives I need to think about how to secure not ending up with a solution I can't use and can't sell.

From what I have heard of the Altair, the Arrakis will satisfy me in the most important areas midrange, midbass and tweeter. Then I need to also include the bass I crave. In order to do this I need sub 10Hz bass. The question then is how to acheive that with the situation described.

I do think that using the standard Arrakis crossover is esential to make this systems sound to my expectations. The Wilson crossovers I think might be an issue for debate if I go for the Thor's Hammer approach. These subwoofers are after all designed to play at its optimal with any main speakers from what I understand. So they should sound good with Arrakis too. The challenge will be in the amplification of the entire system and the crossover for the subwoofers if they are not up to the task as Lloyd might hint at.

With Tidal Audio La Assoluta this is not a problem with its carefully integrated four tower speakers as well as crossover and amplifiers made to match and integrate.

To a lesser extent I also see no problems to acheive this with Magico Q7 and QSub-18. The challenge in this system as outlined might be the two different amplifiers planned for bi-amplification.
 
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LL21

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
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I have already been in contact with Andy about this.
What did he say? I have personally found him extremely knowledgeable, passionate and helpful. He is also incredibly down-to-earth. (ie modest). Hopefully, he was helpful.
 

Roysen

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Aug 6, 2011
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He is indeed very helpful. No doubt about that. He suggested I try the Arrakis first and if I still felt the need to extend the bass performance he would engage in a discussion of a custom solution for me. I assume this means making the crossover 3-way instead of 2-way (as is the solution today) and possibly custom design a pair of passive mono Rockport Technologies subwoofers. But he didn't say, so I would not know for sure.
 

LL21

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
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He is indeed very helpful. No doubt about that. He suggested I try the Arrakis first and if I still felt the need to extend the bass performance he would engage in a discussion of a custom solution for me. I assume this means making the crossover 3-way instead of 2-way (as is the solution today) and possibly custom design a pair of passive mono Rockport Technologies subwoofers. But he didn't say, so I would not know for sure.
As the saying goes...A-L-L...D-A-Y...L-O-N-G!!! I would definitely take a custom solution from Andy Payor...I'd just sign up right now! He is that good, that talented and that committed...no solution he custom makes will be anything less than brilliant imho.
 

LL21

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
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the only way to get a completely integrated cohesive system is that path.

the more dynamic and more deep bass you have the greater the need for integration.

with much (bass) power comes much (integration) responsibility.

of course, open your checkbook very wide.
Inclined to agree...even Flemming Rasmussen of Gryphon Audio was quoted as saying if you can design an amp specifically for a particular speaker, it will be better for that speaker than a super-duper amp that has to be designed to be used with many different kinds of speakers...the customization of that precise integration between speaker and amp is important.

I have little doubt the customization of a particular part of the speaker's output is at least if not important in terms of integration. And if Andy Payor is going to design that bass integration for you regarding his own Arrakis...you could not ask for a better person to do so.

I know how you feel, Roysen, about Gryphon amplification but given that Andy also uses primarily Gryphon (sometimes CJ), I would also give consideration to the Mephisto monos and Pandora as well. Andy's tastes and yours may be different. so I respect your choices.

Speaking for myself, one of the secondary reasons for my buying the Gryphon (primary reason being I just love the amp, sound, power, effortlessness, etc)...was that in the back of my mind, I like the idea of having the electronics and even cabling that Andy Payor uses in his own systems in his own studios for his speakers (CJ, Gryphon, Transparent Audio)...in case I come to that fateful day when I upgrade to the Arrakis...

yes, there are maybe 1 or 2 other speakers I would need to consider as part of this...Gary's big speakers being one of them...but its definitely in the back of my mind...
 
Jan 23, 2011
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But still i personally wouldnt give up so easy on the Q 7 , they have a lot going for them , they have a full listenable tranparent presentation and i would in your place buy a couple of subs which for example steve Williams " the docter" has :D cant recall the name , they are also adjustable , and would probably solve the bass problem if they work with the 95 db Wilsons they will also work with the 94 db magico Q 7 , its a way to fully max out the Q 7 at a lesser cost , instead of changing component after component
I am a metal kind a guy and i must say the inner construction of the Q 7 is a work of audio art , love the magico units as well.
PS i think they were gotham subs from JL audio
I just visited the " magico sub forum" and i saw there is already a whole discussion on which is better the Q or the G :D
 
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LL21

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
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But still i personally wouldnt give up so easy on the Q 7 , they have a lot going for them , they have a full listenable tranparent presentation and i would in your place buy a couple of subs which for example steve Williams " the docter" has :D cant recall the name , they are also adjustable , and would probably solve the bass problem if they work with the 95 db Wilsons they will also work with the 94 db magico Q 7 , its a way to fully max out the Q 7 at a lesser cost , instead of changing component after component
I am a metal kind a guy and i must say the inner construction of the Q 7 is a work of audio art , love the magico units as well.
PS i think they were gotham subs from JL audio
I just visited the " magico sub forum" and i saw there is already a whole discussion on which is better the Q or the G :D
inclined to agree here...I really think at this level, ALL of these speakers (Assoulata, Arrakis, Q7) can be amazing in the right system. particularly Q7 plus Q18s...wow.
 

MadFloyd

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May 31, 2010
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If the problem is that the Q7 is lean in the midbass, then I don't think adding subs will make the difference that Roysen is looking for. Subs generally help in the frequencies below 30 or 40hz (user adjustable but typically nobody adjusts the crossover higher), solidifying the foundation but not 'filling in' the power region.
 

LL21

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
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Hi Roy...is this at all helpful? A Genesis 1.1 system set up where the owner removed the bass crossovers and used FM Acoustics to create his own crossover setup.
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/1...ONO+AND+STEREO+Ultra+High-End+Audio+Magazine)

Rockport Technologies Arrakis II & 2x Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer driven by Goldmund Telos 5000, FM Acoustics Resolution Series 118 and Master Audio Systems Helius.

...It will also consist of FM Acoustics Resolution Series 268-C linestage, FM Acoustics Resolution Series 223 phonostage, Rockport Technologies Sirius III Turntable and Tonearm with Lyra Olympos cartridge.
...
The FMA 268-C has two balanced analogue outputs on XLR. I am going to plug in the FMA118 amps to one of the FMA 268-C outputs using the FMA P.I.T. balanced interconnects. The FMA 118 will then drive the Arrakis tweeter, midrange and midbass by being plugged directly to the Arrakis internal passive crossover with the FMA Forcelines loudspeaker cables.
Then I am going to plug a FM Acoustics P.I.T. Y-cable into the other FMA 268-C output. Into one end of the Y-cable I will plug the Arrakis II active analogue 2-way stereo crossover. Into the other end of the Y-cable I will connect a pair of Wilson Audio The Controller active analogue 2-way mono configured crossovers. Into the Arrakis crossover I will plug the Goldmund Telos 5000 amplifiers with a pair of Siltech Triple Crown interconnects to drive the Arrakis II deep bass by plugging in a pair of Transparent Audio Magnum Opus speaker cables. Into the Wilson Audio The Controller crossovers I will plug the Master Audio Systems Helius amplifiers with a pair of Siltech Triple Crown interconnects to drive the Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer subwoofers by plugging in a pair of Transparent Audio Magnum Opus speaker cables. By using two Wilson Audio The Controllers in mono configuration I want to play the Wilson Audio Thor's Hammers in stereo and avoid to sum up their outputs and play both mono. The three crossovers used can also solve any gain problems since all these crossovers can adjust its output level and by doing so have all speakers matched in level....So come on beat me, make fun of me, agree with me or what ever. Just bring your opinions forward. They are highly appriciated.

Thanks,
Roy
 

Roysen

New Member
Aug 6, 2011
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Inclined to agree...even Flemming Rasmussen of Gryphon Audio was quoted as saying if you can design an amp specifically for a particular speaker, it will be better for that speaker than a super-duper amp that has to be designed to be used with many different kinds of speakers...the customization of that precise integration between speaker and amp is important.

I have little doubt the customization of a particular part of the speaker's output is at least if not important in terms of integration. And if Andy Payor is going to design that bass integration for you regarding his own Arrakis...you could not ask for a better person to do so.

I know how you feel, Roysen, about Gryphon amplification but given that Andy also uses primarily Gryphon (sometimes CJ), I would also give consideration to the Mephisto monos and Pandora as well. Andy's tastes and yours may be different. so I respect your choices.

Speaking for myself, one of the secondary reasons for my buying the Gryphon (primary reason being I just love the amp, sound, power, effortlessness, etc)...was that in the back of my mind, I like the idea of having the electronics and even cabling that Andy Payor uses in his own systems in his own studios for his speakers (CJ, Gryphon, Transparent Audio)...in case I come to that fateful day when I upgrade to the Arrakis...

yes, there are maybe 1 or 2 other speakers I would need to consider as part of this...Gary's big speakers being one of them...but its definitely in the back of my mind...
I just wanted to comment one issue you mentioned. I do like Gryphon - both amplifiers and speakers.
 

LL21

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
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