Are we going in the right direction?

[DaveyF]

And isn't the result more often than not simply a preference.

Not necessarily. There are a LOT of speakers that fall on their face in a BIG way when asked to produce....an organ recital, for example. Other faults are given an absolute by all ( ok maybe most,lol) listeners. But I do think that when absolute consistency is found in the result, the preference idea is probably not too correct. This may be rare, BUT it does happen..

 

[bonzo75]

Is this thread going in the right direction

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Not necessarily. There are a LOT of speakers that fall on their face in a BIG way when asked to produce....an organ recital, for example. Other faults are given an absolute by all ( ok maybe most,lol) listeners. But I do think that when absolute consistency is found in the result, the preference idea is probably not too correct. This may be rare, BUT it does happen..

I can accept that, although I have yet to hear such a speaker.

Is this thread going in the right direction

Probably not, but what else is new? LOL!

 

[TBone]

Sure, both are good tests of a system. Except, we are NOT talking about the test, we are talking about the result!

The result, within my system, would seemingly be much the same. I'm far more concerned about my speakers ability to reproduce specific instruments, individually, and as a group. Be-it Carl Palmers classical power, or Ian Paice's jazzy rock, or Mark Walkers unique percussion, the instrument, and how it's reproduced, remains the same. Can I tell what kind of acoustic or electric guitar David Gilmour used for a particular recording, his pedal work, can I hear the distinct tang of a Yami piano ... these things I find important; defining a speaker by musical genre is basically meaningless to me.

 

[JackD201]

Name some. Genelec? Focal? Adam? KRK? You'll find that professional users have their own preferences/references just like domestic listeners do. They don't sound alike either.

That also doesn't address where they will be listened to, how they will be listened to and yes, what they will be used for. There are a few people here that use excellent pro monitors in the home and they make it work for them. As someone who has spent hundreds of hours in front of pro monitors, no they are not a silver bullet.

So. Do you bother to ask your clients what their requirements are or not?

Incidentally, look at this from one of the most successful pro market manufacturers in the world making some of the best measuring speakers in the world. THEY clearly bother to ask.
http://www.genelec.com/speaker-selection-tool/

I plugged in my requirements and it spat out NO MATCHING PRODUCTS ADJUST YOUR REQUIREMENTS

What generalisation are you going to throw out next?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The speaker is the horse and the room/venue the course. Are we seriously having to discuss this? This is kiddy audio territory.

Nice. But not an answer to the question. Seriously, what we hear about typically are systems that are extraordinary at small ensemble stuff, but fail to deliver the complex, very dynamic stuff. I completely understand that. But the guys with the big rigs always say they render the small scale stuff beautifully. Are they wrong? Or are we just finding the weaknesses of the first system? It's a pretty straight forward question based on observation and pretty logical reasoning. Not sure there's anything "kiddy audio" about it.

Tim

 

[DaveyF]

IME, most of the larger speakers I have heard are quite adept at reproducing scale and can usually plunge the bottom frequencies well. OTOH, they are usually NOT that good at portraying the small scale stuff...particularly the fine intimate details that are usually the strength of a smaller monitor. Plus, a lot of the larger speakers produce an image of an instrument that is simply too large. A 6' tall guitar for instance. The room has a LOT to do with this aspect, BUT I still believe that it is a rare speaker that can actually do both( intimacy and scale/correct size of instruments) with equal greatness.
The speaker in the OP, who knows how it performs??...However, almost all of the horns that I have heard, tend to be less able in the intimacy dept and more able in the scale/dynamics dept.

 

[bonzo75]

Name some. Genelec? Focal? Adam? KRK? You'll find that professional users have their own preferences/references just like domestic listeners do. They don't sound alike either.

How are Adams? I plan to hear them with the Trinnov, but might be more than a month away. This is one of their higher up models.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

IME, most of the larger speakers I have heard are quite adept at reproducing scale and can usually plunge the bottom frequencies well. OTOH, they are usually NOT that good at portraying the small scale stuff...particularly the fine intimate details that are usually the strength of a smaller monitor. Plus, a lot of the larger speakers produce an image of an instrument that is simply too large. A 6' tall guitar for instance. The room has a LOT to do with this aspect, BUT I still believe that it is a rare speaker that can actually do both( intimacy and scale/correct size of instruments) with equal greatness.
The speaker in the OP, who knows how it performs??...However, almost all of the horns that I have heard, tend to be less able in the intimacy dept and more able in the scale/dynamics dept.

I tend to agree, actually, but A) I don't think most of the folks here, when they talk about systems that are good at small ensemble reproduction, are talking about monitors. I think, actually, some of them might be talking about horns, and small "full-range" drivers, horn-loaded, can do intimacy really well. B) I think maybe this effect is a function of 1) SPL - turn the big speaker down. Does it lose presence? That's a system problem. 2) Driver placement; midrange drivers and tweeters placed unnaturally high relative to the listening position -- this simply creates an unnatural sound field to my ear. What other factors do you think might impact this?

Tim

 

[DSkip]

2) Driver placement; midrange drivers and tweeters placed unnaturally high relative to the listening position -- this simply creates an unnatural sound field to my ear. What other factors do you think might impact this?

Tim

I take it by this that you are not a fan of line arrays?


As an aside, there have been several good discussions here that have me checking in more frequently lately. This is one of them. Thanks to all participants.

 

[TBone]

I tend to agree, actually, but A) I don't think most of the folks here, when they talk about systems that are good at small ensemble reproduction, are talking about monitors. I think, actually, some of them might be talking about horns, and small "full-range" drivers, horn-loaded, can do intimacy really well. B) I think maybe this effect is a function of 1) SPL - turn the big speaker down. Does it lose presence? That's a system problem. 2) Driver placement; midrange drivers and tweeters placed unnaturally high relative to the listening position -- this simply creates an unnatural sound field to my ear. What other factors do you think might impact this?

throwing wrenches into gears, and generalizing to degree (because obviously proper implementation remains key no matter which design), personally I think a good monitor can reproduce large scale music perfectly fine, and perhaps offer some advantages. A speaker (and it's surroundings) must dissipate energy quickly - critical for large scale music reproduction. That goal perhaps is more easily attainable with a smaller speaker.

I prefer speakers (actually systems) which can reproduce hard hit percussion instruments faithfully; the leading edge defines true instrumental impact, recovery defines harmonic smearing. Being a vinyl head, a long time ago I realized some big speakers w/multiples of drivers, handled damaged/dirty records very poorly. Clicks & pops, some BIG impactful pops (potentially damaging) can tell you much about a speakers ability to handle instrumental impact, and very dynamic peaks/passages.

 

[DaveyF]

I tend to agree, actually, but A) I don't think most of the folks here, when they talk about systems that are good at small ensemble reproduction, are talking about monitors. I think, actually, some of them might be talking about horns, and small "full-range" drivers, horn-loaded, can do intimacy really well. B) I think maybe this effect is a function of 1) SPL - turn the big speaker down. Does it lose presence? That's a system problem. 2) Driver placement; midrange drivers and tweeters placed unnaturally high relative to the listening position -- this simply creates an unnatural sound field to my ear. What other factors do you think might impact this?

Tim

I think there are several other factors that can into play...and to answer Keith's question as well:
1) Many larger speakers are burdened with having to recreate deeper bass than their cabinet design will allow. ( which leads to smearing and loss of information due to the increased possibility of cabinet issues due to the increased size and decreased rigidity) This is one of the reasons that the newer metal based cabinets like Magico's are implemented. I do NOT see many horns, or in fact too many speakers period, that are large and have this kind of 'overkill' in their cabinet construction. The horn in my OP certainly would seem NOT to.( Although for $200K+ it should NOT have these issues, IMHO)
2) The larger the speaker the more real estate it is going to take in the room. Possibly leading to an overload of the room and resulting in an unnatural and bloated soundstage that takes away from the intimacy of a small ensemble or single instrument's definition.

You already mentioned driver placement, which I believe is a BIGGY when it comes to this issue. An example of this is the new YG Sonja....the drivers ( for the mid and upper freq.'s) are located vey high on the speaker....which IMO leads them to produce somewhat of a higher sound field. Great, if the room is large enough and you can sit far enough back from the speakers...not so much IF you cannot. There are several other factors as well...I'm sure others will chime in here.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I take it by this that you are not a fan of line arrays?


As an aside, there have been several good discussions here that have me checking in more frequently lately. This is one of them. Thanks to all participants.

I'm not a fan of the primary directional ques coming at me from over head. It sounds unnatural to me and, I think, contributes to bloated scale, particularly of intimate music. But people with very tall speakers don't seem to notice. Another example of the adaptation of human perception, I suppose.

Tim

 

[Atmasphere]

Aah what a wonderful sweeping generalization. Every speaker has a performance envelope. Each has its strengths and weaknesses in terms of both output and room integration. This all started when I said Horses for Courses. Do indulge me this. What reason would one need to choose a Cessaro over a GRIMM?

Although perfectly true, I often see people asking- What is the best speaker for rock and roll (or classical or jazz)? The answer is the best speaker period is the best speaker for rock or classical or whatever. Speakers and the electronics that drive them have no musical preference. I honestly saw a thread recently where a guy wanted to know which speaker was best for 1980s downtempo! Honestly, there is no form of music that particularly favors one band of frequencies over the other. The idea that there is a best speaker for a particular form of music is one of the most common myths in the world of speakers, an oddly enough seems to be something that persists with the lo and mid-fi end of the market. It certainly has no place in high end...

not true. but it's not such a simple thing to grasp.

last fall I had some amps brought to my room as much for the seller/distributor to see how they would do as for me to experience them. they were 60 watt monoblock OTL's, wonderful sounding amps, not cheap. my speakers are 96db 6 ohm, and have powered bass units....so an easy load.

so it ought to work just fine.

and it did on simple music. small scale vocals, string quartets, small combo jazz. when you played large scale music they simply could not handle controlling the speaker and maintaining the scale and cohesion on musical peaks. there was a point past which you did not want to go there.

the seller/distributor said these were amps ideal for horns, and other hi efficient speakers that don't aspire to do all types of music effectively.

I re-inserted my dart monos and right away the whole musical universe was ours to travel.

and until you heard what the big darts could do on the large scale music you did not realize just how stressed the over $70k 60 watt OTL's were. the difference was dramatic.

can horns and modest power play all kinds of music? sure. can they do the music 100% justice? depends on your reference.

horses for courses.

The problem here of course is that the match between the amplifier and the speaker is more than just reference or preference. If the amp is unsuited for the load it does a disservice to the amp and a disservice to the loudspeaker. A 60-watt OTL, despite being $70,000, is not going to have a very low output impedance and one has to be careful about the speakers used with it. Trust me on this one- we've built more 60-watt OTLs than anyone else in the world... My bet is if you had used a set of ZEROs (www.zeroimpedance.com) your experience may have been different...

However as far as horns go they have the capacity to be some of the most musical speakers made. Here is our installation at the recent Munich show:


These speakers (Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T-3) are 98 db 1 watt/1 meter, 16 ohms, go from 20Hz to 35KHz and employ field coil drivers. The midrange horn uses a 4" diameter pure beryllium compression driver with a Kapton surround. It has no breakups until about 35Khz- its very smooth and fast. Field coils have been the rising star in dynamic drivers for several years. Like ESLs, the motive force (magnetic field in this case) does not sag when the amplifier energizes the driver (which is unlike permanent magnets) and so they tend to be faster and lower distortion as a result. These speakers are some of the most musical and revealing I have heard (I use a number of my own recordings which I have on LP for reference). They retail in the US for about $45,000/pair. Usually they are delivered by the manufacturer and setup personally. The amps in the photo are 60-watt OTLs by the way (although costing only about $7100/pair); we had essentially unlimited power despite playing tracks with Lyn Stanley singing live.

I do see this as a good direction in loudspeakers. If you think about it, its not a good idea for a speaker to be 'difficult to drive' as no matter what amplifier you have, you are forcing it to work harder which means it will make more distortion. Distortion, after all these decades, is still the name of the game and keeping it down rather than up is important. Even transistor amplifiers (despite making less power) will sound smoother and more detailed on these speakers because they make less distortion. You can see it in their specs and you can hear it. So horns are a good thing, especially when connected to higher impedances like 8 or 16 ohms.

 

[JackD201]

Nice. But not an answer to the question. Seriously, what we hear about typically are systems that are extraordinary at small ensemble stuff, but fail to deliver the complex, very dynamic stuff. I completely understand that. But the guys with the big rigs always say they render the small scale stuff beautifully. Are they wrong? Or are we just finding the weaknesses of the first system? It's a pretty straight forward question based on observation and pretty logical reasoning. Not sure there's anything "kiddy audio" about it.

Tim

Not all the big rig guys say that. In fact I am one of those that have always said that it is harder to do the small stuff as well as the small systems. In my case the reason is the distance required to get good time and amplitude integration between drivers at the listening position. The farther away you get the more the room comes into play as well. Having point sources,at my distance the floor reflection is at 150Hz or or so. In other words there are a lot more things to factor in and work around/ work through. That's not to say that it can't be done just that it adds variables/challenges. Would you call this a weakness of big systems? I suppose in a way one could. The way I see it however, it's just physics. You make your choices based on the space you have and you optimise as best you can. A line source would take away the floor and ceiling problem to a great extent but has it's own unique set of qualities that need to be considered. In the end the first question one has to ask himself is what the hell do you want to use the system for. Solo listening in a cozy place? Build up for that. A system that can fill a large room where you will often entertain multiple guests? Build for that. My whole point is that if you swap one system for the other BOTH will fail at what the other objective. Horses for Courses.

What I find frustrating is hearing how some people want to INSIST that their way can do it all. Yeah? Well a pair of two ways and subs did not and could not do what my main speakers did. I know, unlike some people that like to pull crap out of their a$$es because they read a few books or articles, I have had to do it.

As for the Genelec site, I plugged in the room size, use, listening distance, SPL and it coughed up a no matching product. So that's that. Generic has no horse for my particular course. I rest my case.

 

[NorthStar]

Although perfectly true, I often see people asking- What is the best speaker for rock and roll (or classical or jazz)? The answer is the best speaker period is the best speaker for rock or classical or whatever. Speakers and the electronics that drive them have no musical preference. I honestly saw a thread recently where a guy wanted to know which speaker was best for 1980s downtempo! Honestly, there is no form of music that particularly favors one band of frequencies over the other.
The idea that there is a best speaker for a particular form of music is one of the most common myths in the world of speakers, an oddly enough seems to be something that persists with the lo and mid-fi end of the market. It certainly has no place in high end...

Sometimes I feel that we need a new batch of professional speaker's reviewers.
...And speaker's designers using all music's genre when designing/fine-tuning their speakers.

 

[DaveyF]

Not all the big rig guys say that. In fact I am one of those that have always said that it is harder to do the small stuff as well as the small systems. In my case the reason is the distance required to get good time and amplitude integration between drivers at the listening position. The farther away you get the more the room comes into play as well. Having point sources,at my distance the floor reflection is at 150Hz or or so. In other words there are a lot more things to factor in and work around/ work through. That's not to say that it can't be done just that it adds variables/challenges. Would you call this a weakness of big systems? I suppose in a way one could. The way I see it however, it's just physics. You make your choices based on the space you have and you optimise as best you can. A line source would take away the floor and ceiling problem to a great extent but has it's own unique set of qualities that need to be considered. In the end the first question one has to ask himself is what the hell do you want to use the system for. Solo listening in a cozy place? Build up for that. A system that can fill a large room where you will often entertain multiple guests? Build for that. My whole point is that if you swap one system for the other BOTH will fail at what the other objective. Horses for Courses.

What I find frustrating is hearing how some people want to INSIST that their way can do it all. Yeah? Well a pair of two ways and subs did not and could not do what my main speakers did. I know, unlike some people that like to pull crap out of their a$$es because they read a few books or articles, I have had to do it.

.

I think you are absolutely correct, Jack. IME, there are compromises to be heard in just about all speakers and most rooms. The current 'horn' fad seems to be increasing in popularity, which I an understand from one point of view...that is that they are typically an easier load for the accompanying amp. Like Ralph says, that's a good thing. OTOH, the inherent 'cupped hands' issue and the tendency to stridency is a problem that I still think bedevils them. I have yet to hear a horn based speaker that I would want to live with for any length of time...and particularly not in a small/ish room. Like you say horses for courses, and IF I am to understand Ralph, he doesn't really believe that??

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Not all the big rig guys say that. In fact I am one of those that have always said that it is harder to do the small stuff as well as the small systems. In my case the reason is the distance required to get good time and amplitude integration between drivers at the listening position. The farther away you get the more the room comes into play as well. Having point sources,at my distance the floor reflection is at 150Hz or or so. In other words there are a lot more things to factor in and work around/ work through. That's not to say that it can't be done just that it adds variables/challenges. Would you call this a weakness of big systems? I suppose in a way one could. The way I see it however, it's just physics. You make your choices based on the space you have and you optimise as best you can. A line source would take away the floor and ceiling problem to a great extent but has it's own unique set of qualities that need to be considered. In the end the first question one has to ask himself is what the hell do you want to use the system for. Solo listening in a cozy place? Build up for that. A system that can fill a large room where you will often entertain multiple guests? Build for that. My whole point is that if you swap one system for the other BOTH will fail at what the other objective. Horses for Courses.

What I find frustrating is hearing how some people want to INSIST that their way can do it all. Yeah? Well a pair of two ways and subs did not and could not do what my main speakers did. I know, unlike some people that like to pull crap out of their a$$es because they read a few books or articles, I have had to do it.

As for the Genelec site, I plugged in the room size, use, listening distance, SPL and it coughed up a no matching product. So that's that. Generic has no horse for my particular course. I rest my case.

Thank you. I don't agree with everything said here, but it's a much better answer than...what was it? Kiddy audio, or something...

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Thank you. I don't agree with everything said here, but it's a much better answer than...what was it? Kiddy audio, or something...

Tim

That was rash of me Tim. I regretted that. I read to much into what you asked and took too little time to think it through neutrally.

 

[DaveC]

I've heard several dc10 Audio speakers at RMAF and if they are any indication the Gottenburgs will be awesome. There are some unusual design elements in dc10 speakers that make them very unique, before I heard them I was skeptical to say the least, but they sound really good.

Here's a PDF with details on the Gottenburg's constuction, from dc10's website:

http://media.wix.com/ugd/d224b6_1f13aa3887d04b05a2bb6ad44d8e01c0.pdf



Oh yeah, on the topic of crazy expensive high end audio products... there is a market for it, one that apparently is growing. Which is more than I can say for other segments of hifi audio. I just got to check out Boulder Amplifier and hear their system, the system was amazing (Focal in a very damped room) and it's INCREDIBLE how much goes into those huge 3000 series amps. It takes 4 guys to pick up one of those amps... It's really cool that some people get to push the envelope of what's possible, and it takes those that can afford 7-figure systems for it to happen. I agree there is a wide range of value for the money when it comes to this end of the market though, but with such low volume there's gotta be significant markups.