Apogee Full range

[ClarisysAudio]

Hello,

the actual numbers are:

2.089m from the midrange ribbon to the backwall
3.507m from the ear to the midrange driver

Also the ribbons were installed by Frank from the HiFi Burg in Switzerland

Kind regards

Florian

 

[ClarisysAudio]

Introduction and some system information:

Hello, my name is Florian and i am "new" here, although some members know me from forums or personally.
The system contains the following:

Speakers: Apogee Acoustics GRAND (SN 6707)
Active 4 Way Speaker (Built in Subwoofer and Tweeter amplifiers) with no capacitors, resistors or other passive parts between the amplification and drivers
External Power Supplies (Internal Amplifiers and Crossovers)
New Graz Midbass Drivers, New Graz Midrange Ribbon and New Graz Tweeter Ribbon
All Drivers are Kapton Backed (2 Trace Tweeter, 6 Trace Midrange)
Impedance is very easy and flat (5ohm) as with all Apogees except the Fullrange and Scintilla which are just low.
Apart from new ribbons and midbass driver no modifications, only original parts used in electronics restoration.

Preamp: NAT Symmetrical
Stock Capacitors upgraded to Mundrof EVO Supreme, otherwise Stock

Electronic Room Correction: Lyngdorf RP-1
Room Knowledge 100%
Room Correction with Neutral Focus 1 Setting is: 29%

CD/SACD Transport: Luxman D-03 (Serves as a DAC from a Apple iMac)
Audio Note Kits DAC 4.1 is coming soon, will start building it next week

Phono: Modified Audio Note Kit L3 (external Power Supply, 3 Stage Filtering)
Measured at 0.2db +- from 20Hz to 20Khz
Tube Power Supply, Tube Rectification, Tube Driver Stage, Active MC Stage
Work done by Mr. Dipl. Ing. Ralf Kassel

Power Filtration: NAT XENON Plasma Effect (Looks nice but is not audible)

Amplifiers for Midrange Ribbons: NAT Transmitters
Usage Mode: Low (50Watts) High (110Watts). Mostly used in Low mode as it makes little to no difference in High
Single Ended Triode with No Feedback

Amplifiers for Midbass Driver: NAT Transmitters
Usage Mode: Low (50Watts) High (110Watts). Mostly used in Low mode as it makes little to no difference in High
Single Ended Triode with No Feedback

Custom Build: DC Offset Measurement and protection circuitry between amplifiers and ribbons. Developed by Mr. Dipl. Ing. Ralf Kassel

Analog: Acoustic Signature Analog ONE MKIII High Mass Turntable (70kg)
3 external motors (12V DC Brushless)
Alpha Digital External Power Supply

MC System: Van den Hul Canary SE
Custom Built Air Bearing Tangential Tonearm

Funk Tonstudiotechnik SAM 2C - Symmetrical Differential Amplifier
Changes the Single Ended Phono to fully balanced output

Tape: Fully restored Studer B67MKII Reel To Reel Tape

Pioneer PL50L Direct Drive (not yet setup)

Frequency response of the entire system at the listening position is +-2db
Measuring equipment used:

Neutrik Audiograph
Modules: 3302, 3314, 3332, 3312, 3322

Full corner bass trapping (GIK Acoustics) on all 4 corners
Absorption panels in the ceiling to trim decay.

Noteworthy electronics used in the past (The list is over 100 items long, so i wont bother with all)

KRELL
KSA100
KSA150
KSA250EUR
KRS200
KRC2

Sphinx Project
12
14
18
32

NAT
Utopia
Plasma
Phono Signature
SE1 MKI
SE1 MKII
SE2
SE3

CAT
JL2
Ultimate MKI

Speakers i used to own:

Apogee: Stage,Scintilla, DIVA, Fullrange, Caliper,
Magnepan: 0.5, 1.6, 3.6
VMPS: RM30R, 626
Acoustat: Spectra 11
Usher Audio: D2 MKII Horn Speakers

 

[RBFC]

Welcome, Florian. As a former owner of full-range Apogees, it's good to see another fan here! What was the biggest challenge for you in getting the Grands working well in your room, and what next step(s) are you planning?

Lee

 

[ClarisysAudio]

Welcome, Florian. As a former owner of full-range Apogees, it's good to see another fan here! What was the biggest challenge for you in getting the Grands working well in your room, and what next step(s) are you planning?

Lee

Hello Lee,

thank you for the welcome
As my girlfriend likes the house we live in, there is not much i can do about the room.
The first thing i did was to actually measure the room. So i bought professional analog measurement gear (Neutrik Audiograph as posted above).
There is a "low pressure" area at the seating axis, which was very troublesome with the Usher Audio D2 MKII horn speakers i also had. The Grand does not have the "dip at about 40Hz-50Hz.
I use all GIK Bass Trapping which is only effective to reduce "decay" as it absorbs virtually nothing below 80Hz, despite the advertising, but their service is excellent!
The Grand is very flat apart from the bass, which is way too much without correction. The Lyngdorf fixes this very nicely without touching anything above 80Hz (i measured this).

My next steps are in the DIY area. I ordered a Audio Note Kits DAC 4.1 and will enjoy building that. I also bought a second Turn Table (Pioneer PL50L) which i will play around with. I catalogued my Vinyl and CD collection and will just listen to music. I have no plans and i am satisfied to listen to my humble system, even if DDK thinks its the worst speaker in 35+ years HiFI history with many design flaws ;-)

Cheers

 

[Zero000]

Hi Florian,

Are you using Philips QB5/1750 in the NATs? Are you aware of the Russian GU-46, which can be had on ebay for $49? So cheap they must be worth a try?

Nice amps - sound lovely driving Analysis Omegas. Love to try them on my Apogees.

 

[LL21]

Hello,

the actual numbers are:

2.089m from the midrange ribbon to the backwall
3.507m from the ear to the midrange driver

Also the ribbons were installed by Frank from the HiFi Burg in Switzerland

Kind regards

Florian

Welcome! Look forward to reading more about your fabulous system!

 

[richard]

"scintilla is ony one that need a SS as a must"

The Grands the guy in Switzerland is running is on a flat 6 ohm impedance, David as opposed to 4 for his divas. He has been through multiple SS brands and finally settled with NATs, on his 4th upgrade now. The scintilla is the only one that needs a SS as a must even its restored state. There is a guy in the US running NATs on full ranges, and at least two running tube research lab on full range and duetta sig respectively. Lamm hybrid on studio grands

Just read this wonderful thread today.

I don't have nearly the experience of many of the other members here, but I must respectfully disagree with the above assessment of tube amps and Scintillas. I have been driving 1-ohm Scintillas restored by True Sound Works with CAT Statement monoblocks (16 KT-120's / amp) for 3 years with what I would consider excellent results. Checked with Ken Stevens before purchase, as amps rated at only 150 wpc / 8 ohms. He was very confident that they would drive them with no problem, estimated they would deliver 800-900 watts of triode power into that load. Previously had Acoustat Spectra 66's for 10 years, thought they were the be-all-end-all, but the Scintillas make them sound veiled and muddy in comparison. The Acoustats would go a little louder, but they have been sitting idle ever since, and I've never felt the Scintillas would not go loud enough. Also, the bass from the Scintillas is in another league than the Acoustats.

*** SADLY ****, saw one of our (furry)cats playing with tinfoil couple of months ago, only it wasn't tin foil, it was tweeter ribbon (from both speakers). As other posters have noted, had to ship entire speakers back for repair, no small task. After speaking with Rich Murry at True Sound Works, have decided to upgrade to Full Ranges, he highly recommends them. The journey goes on!

Richard

 

[LL21]

Just read this wonderful thread today.

I don't have nearly the experience of many of the other members here, but I must respectfully disagree with the above assessment of tube amps and Scintillas. I have been driving 1-ohm Scintillas restored by True Sound Works with CAT Statement monoblocks (16 KT-120's / amp) for 3 years with what I would consider excellent results. Checked with Ken Stevens before purchase, as amps rated at only 150 wpc / 8 ohms. He was very confident that they would drive them with no problem, estimated they would deliver 800-900 watts of triode power into that load. Previously had Acoustat Spectra 66's for 10 years, thought they were the be-all-end-all, but the Scintillas make them sound veiled and muddy in comparison. The Acoustats would go a little louder, but they have been sitting idle ever since, and I've never felt the Scintillas would not go loud enough. Also, the bass from the Scintillas is in another league than the Acoustats.

*** SADLY ****, saw one of our (furry)cats playing with tinfoil couple of months ago, only it wasn't tin foil, it was tweeter ribbon (from both speakers). As other posters have noted, had to ship entire speakers back for repair, no small task. After speaking with Rich Murry at True Sound Works, have decided to upgrade to Full Ranges, he highly recommends them. The journey goes on!

Richard

Wow!!! Fantastic history and story, and certainly nice to hear comparisons with the famous but rare Acoustats. By the way, you MUST thank your cat for your new Full Ranges!!! Who knows? Perhaps he was thinking it was time for an upgrade after listening to your Scintallas all these years!

In any event, most interested to hear what you think about the Full Ranges...when will you be getting them?

 

[bonzo75]

Just read this wonderful thread today.

I don't have nearly the experience of many of the other members here, but I must respectfully disagree with the above assessment of tube amps and Scintillas. I have been driving 1-ohm Scintillas restored by True Sound Works with CAT Statement monoblocks (16 KT-120's / amp) for 3 years with what I would consider excellent results. Checked with Ken Stevens before purchase, as amps rated at only 150 wpc / 8 ohms. He was very confident that they would drive them with no problem, estimated they would deliver 800-900 watts of triode power into that load. Previously had Acoustat Spectra 66's for 10 years, thought they were the be-all-end-all, but the Scintillas make them sound veiled and muddy in comparison. The Acoustats would go a little louder, but they have been sitting idle ever since, and I've never felt the Scintillas would not go loud enough. Also, the bass from the Scintillas is in another league than the Acoustats.

*** SADLY ****, saw one of our (furry)cats playing with tinfoil couple of months ago, only it wasn't tin foil, it was tweeter ribbon (from both speakers). As other posters have noted, had to ship entire speakers back for repair, no small task. After speaking with Rich Murry at True Sound Works, have decided to upgrade to Full Ranges, he highly recommends them. The journey goes on!

Richard

Hi Richard, this is great. Though I would have loved to listen to your Scinnies, since I have not heard a properly restored Scinnies.

You should also visit this thread where we have some great Apogee discussions going

For example, see what one of the users has in Hong Kong http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ilder-Restorer&p=406264&viewfull=1#post406264

This is where the thread starts http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ilder-Restorer&p=403808&viewfull=1#post403808

Btw, when are you getting your FRs. Will you be biamping with CATs?

 

[richard]

Just located and purchased a pair in need of repair, I expect it will be some months before Rich has them ready, we still need to discuss options after he gets them and looks them over. I really hope this will be my last pair of speakers, I can't imagine what I would replace them with. I've been a planar guy since my first Acoustat 3's in 1981, haven't ever heard magic in boxes.

Will be driving each speaker with one monoblock. By sheer coincidence, after Apogees were eaten, I discovered Ken has a Black Path capacitor upgrade for the CATs. I shipped them off to him, also getting a power transformer upgrade. Music room kind of empty, but a lot to look forward to!

 

[jeff1225]

Introduction and some system information:

Hello, my name is Florian and i am "new" here, although some members know me from forums or personally.
The system contains the following:

Speakers: Apogee Acoustics GRAND (SN 6707)
Active 4 Way Speaker (Built in Subwoofer and Tweeter amplifiers) with no capacitors, resistors or other passive parts between the amplification and drivers
External Power Supplies (Internal Amplifiers and Crossovers)
New Graz Midbass Drivers, New Graz Midrange Ribbon and New Graz Tweeter Ribbon
All Drivers are Kapton Backed (2 Trace Tweeter, 6 Trace Midrange)
Impedance is very easy and flat (5ohm) as with all Apogees except the Fullrange and Scintilla which are just low.
Apart from new ribbons and midbass driver no modifications, only original parts used in electronics restoration.

Preamp: NAT Symmetrical
Stock Capacitors upgraded to Mundrof EVO Supreme, otherwise Stock

Electronic Room Correction: Lyngdorf RP-1
Room Knowledge 100%
Room Correction with Neutral Focus 1 Setting is: 29%

CD/SACD Transport: Luxman D-03 (Serves as a DAC from a Apple iMac)
Audio Note Kits DAC 4.1 is coming soon, will start building it next week

Phono: Modified Audio Note Kit L3 (external Power Supply, 3 Stage Filtering)
Measured at 0.2db +- from 20Hz to 20Khz
Tube Power Supply, Tube Rectification, Tube Driver Stage, Active MC Stage
Work done by Mr. Dipl. Ing. Ralf Kassel

Power Filtration: NAT XENON Plasma Effect (Looks nice but is not audible)

Amplifiers for Midrange Ribbons: NAT Transmitters
Usage Mode: Low (50Watts) High (110Watts). Mostly used in Low mode as it makes little to no difference in High
Single Ended Triode with No Feedback

Amplifiers for Midbass Driver: NAT Transmitters
Usage Mode: Low (50Watts) High (110Watts). Mostly used in Low mode as it makes little to no difference in High
Single Ended Triode with No Feedback

Custom Build: DC Offset Measurement and protection circuitry between amplifiers and ribbons. Developed by Mr. Dipl. Ing. Ralf Kassel

Analog: Acoustic Signature Analog ONE MKIII High Mass Turntable (70kg)
3 external motors (12V DC Brushless)
Alpha Digital External Power Supply

MC System: Van den Hul Canary SE
Custom Built Air Bearing Tangential Tonearm

Funk Tonstudiotechnik SAM 2C - Symmetrical Differential Amplifier
Changes the Single Ended Phono to fully balanced output

Tape: Fully restored Studer B67MKII Reel To Reel Tape

Pioneer PL50L Direct Drive (not yet setup)

Frequency response of the entire system at the listening position is +-2db
Measuring equipment used:

Neutrik Audiograph
Modules: 3302, 3314, 3332, 3312, 3322

Full corner bass trapping (GIK Acoustics) on all 4 corners
Absorption panels in the ceiling to trim decay.

Noteworthy electronics used in the past (The list is over 100 items long, so i wont bother with all)

KRELL
KSA100
KSA150
KSA250EUR
KRS200
KRC2

Sphinx Project
12
14
18
32

NAT
Utopia
Plasma
Phono Signature
SE1 MKI
SE1 MKII
SE2
SE3

CAT
JL2
Ultimate MKI

Speakers i used to own:

Apogee: Stage,Scintilla, DIVA, Fullrange, Caliper,
Magnepan: 0.5, 1.6, 3.6
VMPS: RM30R, 626
Acoustat: Spectra 11
Usher Audio: D2 MKII Horn Speakers

Florian,
I've been interested in the Usher D2 Horns from many years. Can you tell me why you moved on from them? Thank you.

 

[thekong]

Hi Richard, congratulations on your Fullrange, you will enjoy them for sure

I am very interested to know more about the CAT, which I have heard very good comments on, but unfortunately haven't have the chance to audition a pair yet!

What puzzles me is that, if it is rated at 150W / 8 ohm, I wonder how could it output 800-900W into 1 ohm? As far as I understand, unlike SS amps, tube amps can’t have a major increase in power (at least not to this extend) into lower ohms!

Also, you mentioned that you would be driving each speaker with one monoblock! A stock Fullrange would require at least bi-amping, so would your Fullrange be using a custom made full passive Xover from Rich?

 

[richard]

Hi Richard, congratulations on your Fullrange, you will enjoy them for sure

I am very interested to know more about the CAT, which I have heard very good comments on, but unfortunately haven't have the chance to audition a pair yet!

What puzzles me is that, if it is rated at 150W / 8 ohm, I wonder how could it output 800-900W into 1 ohm? As far as I understand, unlike SS amps, tube amps can’t have a major increase in power (at least not to this extend) into lower ohms!

Also, you mentioned that you would be driving each speaker with one monoblock! A stock Fullrange would require at least bi-amping, so would your Fullrange be using a custom made full passive Xover from Rich?

I'm not a technical guy, but the CATs are legendary for being able to drive almost anything. My Acoustat 66's were purchased from a dealer who had been driving them with a Classe 300wpc SS amp. He was dumbstruck when he heard the speakers with the CATs in my room, I think he actually might have regretted selling them at that point. The wattage quote was straight from the mouth of Ken Stevens, I'm sure he would be happy to explain it if you contacted him. He had absolutely no reservations about them being able to drive the 1-ohm Scintillas, and he was right. Interestingly, the bias meters on the amps danced around with crazy different values when playing the Scintillas loudly, I sent Ken a video of it, he said this was an expected finding in this situation.

I'm sorry again I can't give an technical answer about the Fullrange crossover. Rich said in a preliminary discussion that he could arrange for them to be bi-amped, but apparently it was no problem for him to set them up for one amp to drive, as well. I know he is regularly adopting improvements to the various Apogee models, my Scintillas were actually restored by him 9 years ago (long before I got them), he said major improvements had become available in the interim.

 

[thekong]

Hi Richard, thank you for the reply! My Fullrange was also from Rich!

I would be very interested to hear your comment once you have your Fullrange setup! It would be very good news if the Fullrange could be made efficient enough to be driven by a single amp, even with one as powerful as the CAT!

 

[richard]

Hi Richard, thank you for the reply! My Fullrange was also from Rich!

I would be very interested to hear your comment once you have your Fullrange setup! It would be very good news if the Fullrange could be made efficient enough to be driven by a single amp, even with one as powerful as the CAT!

I assure you I will report my impressions, I'm hoping I will be one very happy camper.

 

[Reality Audio]

I'm Jon the UK Apogee restorer, thought I should pop in here as my name seems to be getting mentioned a lot!

I have read through this thread over the past few hours, so some of my comments relate to stuff brought up some time ago and in no particular order.

First of all in relation to the tread title, I have only briefly heard Full Ranges as I only know of 2 pairs in the UK, there may be more but that's people who have contacted me. For a bit of clarification, FR's use the same type of pure foil ribbons as the Scintilla. The FR has a single 2" wide mid and 2 x back to back 1/2" wide tweeters in separate magnet arrays. The Scintilla has the same but shorter 2" wide foil midrange with 2 x 1/2" wide tweeters in front and back of the midrange, essentially they put the ribbons in the same field and folded the tweeters over so to speak.
As Henk has said, the Scintilla's do have a certain magic, but more than anything they need the right amp to get them to perform as well as say Duettas will with a much larger variety of amps.

Apogee's active crossovers, essentially Krell, and full of op-amps. Recently revisited one with Duettas and confirmed my suspicions from having one years ago with Duettas. Compared to a good quality passive, flat, un-dynamic and grey sounding.

Graz's Definitives were never meant to be an official product, more of a money no option test-bed for technology that will be in the Advance 7's. He does think the Advance 7's have surpassed the Definitives in most areas now.

Small personal annoyance Class D amps are not digital, Class D is the mode of operation. There are Class D amps that accept a digital PWM signal (TACT Equibit was) but pretty much all of them are analogue same as any other Class A or Class AB amp.

Rebuilt Apogees do sound more efficient, partly down to getting the ribbons aligned correctly with the magnet arrays (this involves fixing the magnet arrays if they are really bad, some horror stories there...) and better crossover components which realise the dynamic range potential of the speaker. Nearly every time I have delivered a pair of speakers the customer has lived with for years they say "seems much louder for the same volume position".

There were other points I was going to make but I'm drawing a blank at the moment, just passed 48, all downhill from here...

Jon

 

[bonzo75]

There were other points I was going to make but I'm drawing a blank at the moment, just passed 48, all downhill from here...

Jon

Welcome Jon, and now I understand Justin better

 

[ddk]

I'm Jon the UK Apogee restorer

Rebuilt Apogees do sound more efficient, ...

Sound only? Does the impedance curve change at all with the new ribbons?

There were other points I was going to make but I'm drawing a blank at the moment, just passed 48, all downhill from here...

Jon

You're among the youngsters here Jon !

david

 

[Reality Audio]

Hi David, I guess I am, I was too young and broke to afford Apogees when I was reading the reviews, first pair was a rather average condition set of Stages in around 1999 I think.

The ribbons are electrically the same, same layout and thickness of foil. Graz has made improvements in other areas such as the glue which bonds the foil to the Kapton backing, which on the tweeters made a surprising improvement. User211 - Justin mentioned this as he heard it first hand going from KLM3 to KLM5 tweeters.

Apogee bass ribbons were hand-cut so there would often be inaccuracies, some good, some POETS* rush jobs, combine that with possibly less than perfect placement over a possibly less than perfect magnet array... What actually happens is because of the way the panels work, you can have a section on a trace that is trying to be pushed back when the rest wants to go forwards, a bit like slightly resting your foot on the brake while accelerating.

It's possibly more of an increased dynamic ability in tandem with an increase in perceived efficiency. I might actually try a measurement on the next pair I get in to prove what is heard.

* P**s off early tomorrows Saturday

 

[richard]

Small update:

Rich has taken apart and evaluated the Fullranges I purchased and had shipped to him. He has ordered all new ribbons from Australia. We have discussed options, he is going to rebuild them with every upgrade he knows, remove the "wing," then build custom walnut cabinetry for them. I have no idea how long this is going to take, but I dare not rush a master at work. It's fun to think about them, anyway!

Richard