Alexx V arrive in NJ

[spiritofmusic]

Milan, you're much too pretty, I think you should stay well clear.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Marc I’ll save my trip to hear Zu again for when I make it to the chapel… one loop of the mobius is plenty

 

[spiritofmusic]

Only 10,500 miles, you're a dedicated man.

 

[Elliot G.]

I find this discussion very funny. I have listened to hundreds of what people call their reference system in my years in this business.
The gamut ran from Harry Pearson's to some DIY crap in a Bayshore basement. The fun fact is everyone thought/believed/would fight over theirs was better than the rest. Trust me I have heard some really shitty sounding systems that people tell me is just what it sounded like live!!!
At home in the rooms of those who I respect and have experience, I have experienced some very good sounding systems and although they do many of the same things well they are not close to being the same. This of course includes mine BTW. We all have a large number of parameters that are different.
Room
Room Size
all the varied different equipment and combinations
SET UP- which IMO most are not done correctly- either by knowledge or constraints as to the other things going on in the home
Musical preferences
Last but least personal taste and choice.

I recently was at Marty's home, heard his system, listened to what he wanted me to hear, listened at his chosen levels.
I enjoyed his system, I liked his system, however it was not my system. That doesn't make me right or him wrong its just the way we see/hear it and that's almost always different.

There are very few items in audio that are universal if any.
There is no absolute hamburger as HP used to say.

There is the sound of non amplified instruments in an acoustic space however what instrument in what space and where are you in relationship to that instrument all will change what we hear and perceive.

I always wondered how some of those rooms I visited sounded so bad and so far away from reality. I think it was due to most of them only listened to recorded music and compared gear to gear.
The internet is full of this Gear/Gear stuff and we all need to create our own reference but I truly believe it starts with the real thing. I like all kinds of music but going to a hockey rink to listen to rock is not where I start with my reference. I always start with small and work out.

If I was to give any advise ( please don't kill me for this) be careful who you listen to there seems to be loads of youtube videos talking about high end from those with no credentials and questionable ethics. A word to the wise!!!

 

[Al M.]

I find this discussion very funny. I have listened to hundreds of what people call their reference system in my years in this business.
The gamut ran from Harry Pearson's to some DIY crap in a Bayshore basement. The fun fact is everyone thought/believed/would fight over theirs was better than the rest. Trust me I have heard some really shitty sounding systems that people tell me is just what it sounded like live!!!
At home in the rooms of those who I respect and have experience, I have experienced some very good sounding systems and although they do many of the same things well they are not close to being the same. This of course includes mine BTW. We all have a large number of parameters that are different.
Room
Room Size
all the varied different equipment and combinations
SET UP- which IMO most are not done correctly- either by knowledge or constraints as to the other things going on in the home
Musical preferences
Last but least personal taste and choice.

I recently was at Marty's home, heard his system, listened to what he wanted me to hear, listened at his chosen levels.
I enjoyed his system, I liked his system, however it was not my system. That doesn't make me right or him wrong its just the way we see/hear it and that's almost always different.

There are very few items in audio that are universal if any.
There is no absolute hamburger as HP used to say.

There is the sound of non amplified instruments in an acoustic space however what instrument in what space and where are you in relationship to that instrument all will change what we hear and perceive.

I always wondered how some of those rooms I visited sounded so bad and so far away from reality. I think it was due to most of them only listened to recorded music and compared gear to gear.
The internet is full of this Gear/Gear stuff and we all need to create our own reference but I truly believe it starts with the real thing. I like all kinds of music but going to a hockey rink to listen to rock is not where I start with my reference. I always start with small and work out.

If I was to give any advise ( please don't kill me for this) be careful who you listen to there seems to be loads of youtube videos talking about high end from those with no credentials and questionable ethics. A word to the wise!!!

Excellent post!

 

[microstrip]

Thats why we have magazines like for example " The absolute sound " .
The reviewers decide whats the best , a lot of audiophiles buy accordingly .
Order is restored.

Well okay, at least untill the next issue then

You have a very limited perspective view of magazines and reviews and seem to have audiophiles in very low regard. The Absolute Sound lists more than forty reviewers, senior writers and contribute writers in their ID page and they have very different opinions on what is the "best". Surely people risk getting a distorted view of the magazine if they just read a few free reviews posted online and ignore the more interesting articles and essays.

 

[cjfrbw]

"The fun fact is everyone thought/believed/would fight over theirs was better than the rest. Trust me I have heard some really shitty sounding systems that people tell me is just what it sounded like live!!!k"

LOL!

That's why I always chagrin a bit when people listen to my system. I really don't know. Statements have been favorable for the most part. Last guy said he wouldn't leave the house if he had the system.

I remember Steve years ago brought Marty over. I had my Wavacs in the system. With the midrange Wavac, I decided that I would change the output tubes to some nice NOS Cetron tubes the night before. I hadn't got the news that they need to be burned in for at least 10-15 hours before listening because the older cathodes need to be charged for a while, so when Marty and Steve listened, the channels were grossly imbalanced, which I did not hear until I re-entered the sweet spot after they left. Also, the tweeter amp had gone dead, and all frequencies above 3.5Khz weren't there. They were nice about it, but obviously something wasn't quite right.

I just laughed after I realized it and chalked it up to the audiophile Peter Principle. If something is going to go wrong, it will be when you are demo'ing the system.

 

[tima]

Fat chance. I sat with friends in the concert hall, next to one another, and even though we heard practically the same sound, we sometimes disagreed on the character of it.

There is no Absolute Reference. Everything gets filtered through personal perception right away. Add to that other variables, and you have the typical audiophile disagreement of 4 people having 5 different opinions.

You and your friends in the concert hall did have the same reference and I speculate you mutually agreed you were hearing live acoustic music. Would you agree that each offering a different characterization of what they heard does not change that?

 

[tima]

There are very few items in audio that are universal if any.
There is no absolute hamburger as HP used to say.

There is the sound of non amplified instruments in an acoustic space however what instrument in what space and where are you in relationship to that instrument all will change what we hear and perceive.

I always wondered how some of those rooms I visited sounded so bad and so far away from reality. I think it was due to most of them only listened to recorded music and compared gear to gear.
The internet is full of this Gear/Gear stuff and we all need to create our own reference but I truly believe it starts with the real thing.

You said a lot of different things in that post, Elliot, and I think maybe I understand some of where you're coming from but I am unsure.

Do you believe one can choose live acoustic music as their reference for assessing audio systems without basing that on experience in a specific concert hall seat for a specific performance?

 

[bonzo75]

One day when i make my holy-horn pilgrimage to Utah, i doubt that Zu will be on the itinerary !

On the way to Utah you have to fly to Vegas. So I doubt you will make it out of there, unless David comes and rescues you

 

[cjfrbw]

I would be on board for a California to Utah/Colorado field trip to include ddk's sanctum sanctorum, which is one of the systems that arouses my audiophile curiosity. If any Cali-philes decide to do that, could share the driving.

[DELETED DUE TO POLITICAL]

I would also like to hear an Alsyvox system, as a long time planar lover.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The way to Utah is an old road

 

[Elliot G.]

You said a lot of different things in that post, Elliot, and I think maybe I understand some of where you're coming from but I am unsure.

Do you believe one can choose live acoustic music as their reference for assessing audio systems without basing that on experience in a specific concert hall seat for a specific performance?

Yes of course. I have gone to hundreds of live events of all kinds of music. I think you are way over thinking this. The desire to dive into the minute details of the seat etc. defeats the entire purpose. I used to sponsor a classical solo concert series. I did this for 5 years. The artists appeared and played in a small hall near me. We had guitarists, flautist, pianists, violin and cello recitals. Very rarely more than two performers on stage at a time. I as a sponsor had wonderful seats in the first few rows center. This is where I like to sit. I sat in Carnegie, Lincoln Center and numerous other places including Jazz and Rock as well in the first ten rows. That is where I choose to sit. I like it for many reasons but mostly to hear as much of the music and as little of the room as possible. It is this reference that I set up my systems.
.

 

[sbnx]

I am not sure how we ended up down this path but it is an interesting one. I think this video interview of Dave Wilson talking about what is the "reference" is particularly germane.


https://www.wilsonaudio.com/videos/video-conversations-part-v

 

[microstrip]

Do you believe one can choose live acoustic music as their reference for assessing audio systems without basing that on experience in a specific concert hall seat for a specific performance?

Now perhaps you should to define precisely what we should consider "bias". IMHO personnel biases are much more relevant than seats or concert halls.

We should remember that David Wilson, for example, used the acoustics of the Musikverein as a tool to study the structure of the subtle time delayes reflections of sound, not as tool to create a particular preference. Wilson speakers do not have a Musikverein sound signature just because David listened their many times and loved its acoustics.

 

[microstrip]

I am not sure how we ended up down this path but it is an interesting one. I think this video interview of Dave Wilson talking about what is the "reference" is particularly germane.


https://www.wilsonaudio.com/videos/video-conversations-part-v

Wow, we were watching the same videos at the same time. Should we do a partnership in the lottery to buy the XVX's?

 

[howiebrou]

Now perhaps you should to define precisely what we should consider "bias". IMHO personnel biases are much more relevant than seats or concert halls.

We should remember that David Wilson, for example, used the acoustics of the Musikverein as a tool to study the structure of the subtle time delayes reflections of sound, not as tool to create a particular preference. Wilson speakers do not have a Musikverein sound signature just because David listened their many times and loved its acoustics.

I don't think anywhere has quite the same sound signature and ambience as the Musikverein. Lovely place to be, even without music.

 

[tima]

There is the sound of non amplified instruments in an acoustic space however what instrument in what space and where are you in relationship to that instrument all will change what we hear and perceive.

Do you believe one can choose live acoustic music as their reference for assessing audio systems without basing that on experience in a specific concert hall seat for a specific performance?

I think you are way over thinking this. to dive into the minute details of the seat etc. defeats the entire purpose.

 

[XV-1]

Is there any relevance in that Magico are often paired w CH P, but Wilson aren't?

Wilson has plenty of bass that requires amps with excellent control and Magico doesn't ?

 

[microstrip]

Is there any relevance in that Magico are often paired w CH P, but Wilson aren't?

Pairing in the high-end is many times due to distribution arrangements, not sound parameters.

Sometimes old brands have arrangements since long, even friendship relations, life is not easy to more recent brands.