Alexx V arrive in NJ

[christoph]

Here’s a two week update on the CH M10s. The issue is which M10 to report on. In its purest form, without the addition of any global feedback, the M10 is in many ways, and this is key-only on some material, perhaps the finest amplifier I have heard. The definition, musicality, sound staging, and tonal rightness are all superb and easily among the best available. The amplifier has a natural sound quality that is neither yin or yang but is rather, beautifully balanced. This is most welcome particularly on classical music where the timbre of individual instruments is often simply ravishing. The same is true for female vocals. But there’s a catch. All is not without some serious remorse. The amp’s Achilles heel is low frequency material, particularly below 80 Hz. Here, without the addition of some modest global feedback, bass performance is surprisingly below average at best. For the life of me I do not understand how anyone can think this a good bass amplifier (forget about great). It is not. To compare its performance in the bass range (again, an important qualifier) to the Parasound JC1+ is frankly an embarrassment. The JC1+ is so vastly superior (it is the best bass amplifier I have ever heard, and that includes the esteemed Soulution 701) that this sort of comparison is a sonic equivalent of “the king has no clothes” when describing the M10. The bass, again, without global feedback, leaves me thinking “can’t everyone plainly see (or in this case, hear) the king is naked”? Even on classical music, the lower bass register, whether it is the piano left hand, male basso or baritone, or the almighty lower brass are just, well, wrong. There is no sense of high definition and impact to the low frequencies on a “zero global feedback” M10. The bass frequencies are softer than they are in real life and are therefore unimpressive. It’s not an issue of balance or weight or extension, but rather an issue of definition and hence dynamic impact, as I hear it. But the rest of the range? Very impressive and even wonderous. (While no two amps sound the same, my limited audio memory brings to mind that the M10 resembles the sort of sound Jeff Rowland’s amps are known for; eminently musical and rewarding, but even more so).

So knowing that this liability in the bass is something that is a concern, is there a path forward for me with the M10. Well, yes, but it’s sort of cheating in a way and brings me to discuss the “other” M10- the one with global feedback applied. Recall that I am running the Alexx V full range and supplementing with the JL Gotham subs using a second pair of preamp outputs. I’m now able to crossover the subs at about 28Hz (rather than 25Hz) and although this doesn’t seem like much, it now allows for a blended system sound whereby the liabilities of the CH 10 in the 20-40 Hz range are now effectively masked by the sub’s contribution. It’s sort of a parlor trick if you will, but a discerning listener tell there is something to be desired in the remaining bass range up through 40-80Hz as the sub contribution is nominal in that range. What to do? The answer is obvious. Turn up the global feedback and try to improve the overall bass performance so that it is not only tolerable, but use a low enough amount of global feedback so that it does not impair the magic of the M10 in the rest of the audio range. Have I been successful? In a word, yes, more or less. I’m certainly glad that CH allows for adjustment of global feedback in 1% increments. Without it, this exercise would be impossible, as small differences translate quickly into easily heard satisfactory and unsatisfactory value settings. For me, I have settled on 14%. In doing so, I can live with the bass combo provided by the Alexx V and the JL Gothams. But more importantly, the rest of the range, which not quite at the level of “incredible” that the M10 provides without global feedback, is still pretty damn fine. Here, it should be said, the JC1+ is not its equal, even with some modest global feedback applied to the M10.

Taken together, the Alexx V, the JL subs set to ~28Hz, and a global feedback setting of 14% provided some of the most exquisite listening I have yet to hear from my system. I was listening to one of my “go-to” piano recordings, the incredible dual piano Salzberg album by Martha Argerich and Nelson Freire and was simply mesmerized by the pianos, not only sounding more authentic than I have ever heard them before, but with spatial localization of the two pianos and their individual registers that was not previously realized.

View attachment 82604

This highlights but one aspect of what the M10 is capable of doing. Although it was sonically not quite the equal (particularly for the upper registers) as to using zero global feedback, my settings nonetheless afforded a genuinely satisfying result for the overall blended Alexx V/Gotham system. This may be a comment out of left field but through the M10, the tonal density of the piano as well as many other instruments including voice is very reminiscent to that which I hear as a hallmark of the Zanden 1200Mk3 phono stage (which for me, is high praise indeed).

Equally important, is that the sound of the system when playing big music, especially rock, world or music with deep bass rich transients, is also now very satisfactory, although there will always be a part of me that understands that a small bass range between what the Gothams’ cover and what the M10’s provide on the Alexx V, will always be bettered by the JC1+. It is why an adage such as “perfect is the enemy of good” is as relevant now as ever. I will always wish that the M10 had bass that was able to shine when the global feedback was set at 8%, which is where I think it becomes darned close to sounding like no global feedback at all. But that just isn’t going to happen so for now 14% is where it needs to be for best overall sound, which honestly, ain’t too shabby.

What you just read is a more lengthy explanation for describing what Mad Floyd (Ian) said far more concisely in an earlier post. The M10 is really 2 amplifiers. Turn off global feedback and its tube like qualities will surely impress. Add global feedback, and the potential to sound more like a SS amp, occurs with better bass at the slight expense of the rest of the range. The trick is to reach a balance in one’s system that enables their use in the manner best suited for a particular listener and their system. Will my current configuration and their results ultimately translate into satisfactory long term listening? I certainly hope so. But for the first time since I’ve received them two weeks ago and largely broken in, I think so.

I guess I’ll find out. Stay tuned….!

Marty, you need speakers that are bi-amp-able, then use one M10 with feedback for the bass and one M10 without feedback for the rest
Problem solved

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am glad you found a (at least tentative) solution, Marty!

 

[marty]

Marty, you need speakers that are bi-amp-able, then use one M10 with feedback for the bass and one M10 without feedback for the rest
Problem solved

Christoph,
You are asking me to take a time machine back decades to when this was the sort of thinking that was necessitated by the choices available at the time. Why stop at bi-amping? Been there and done that. Even did tri-amping on home made speakers using Acoustat electrostat panels for midrange (Rowland Research 7's) , EMIT tweeters for treble (ARC tube amp) and ENTEC subs. This created just as many problems as it solved. Surely, there are more refined and simpler approaches available today. A full range speaker design driven by a single amp (channel) is attractive for many reasons. But my oh my, I'm soooo close.......
Marty

 

[marty]

Congrats, Marty. If you are defining the experience of the CH M10 SOLID STATE amps by using the Zanden 1200 Phono stage, you have indeed found what could be one of this generation's grails. Uniquely, the most artfully designed SS is most often being acquired by dyed in the wool tube fans (including SET) who are finding the rarified air of those qualities in SS designs which then go further by bringing to bear the innate strengths well known in SS which is endless reserves of power, massive dynamic swings combined with microdynamic nuances that arise out of practically bottomless, low noise floors.

On a separate note, I find it most intriguing that perhaps one of the most meticulous 'scientific-approach-to-listening' audiophiles (ie, you) also finds the Parasound JC1+ to be unbeatable in bass...which is [i am pretty sure] the very amp David Wilson used to use in his own reference system with the big Thors...when he could EASILY have used 3 VTLs or 3 D'Agostinos. (At least, that is what I have read from visitors to his home.)

Look forward to reading more...how many hours do you have on the CH M10s? On our end, we clock it by day on a post-it...now at over 360 hours on the Robert Koda K160s...which as an owner of Zanden for the last 13 years straight...I can say is the ultimate expression in my experience in amplification. But until we hit 450-500 hours, I am told more is yet to come from 2 owners who have been ahead of us by around 6-10 months.

Would love to hear the CH 10 series. CH is of the key names that continue to intrigue me as an audiophile even if I have found a long-term home (which is saying something for someone who was CJ for 21 years and Gryphon for 11 before changing both up for Robert Koda in the last 12 months).

Do please continue to keep posting...always makes for great reading!

Likewise Lloyd, I love reading your Koda updates as well. It was something that certainly crossed my mind to consider, as it should have, but I'm not sure it will put out a clean KW which I now clearly see is the realm of what I need for concert hall levels on the 92 dB efficient Alexx V. The preamp however...heh, heh, heh....well let's see how all this transpires. Honestly, the Soulution 725 is a great fit for the moment.

 

[metaphacts]

..On a separate note, I find it most intriguing that perhaps one of the most meticulous 'scientific-approach-to-listening' audiophiles (ie, you) also finds the Parasound JC1+ to be unbeatable in bass...which is [i am pretty sure] the very amp David Wilson used to use in his own reference system with the big Thors...when he could EASILY have used 3 VTLs or 3 D'Agostinos. (At least, that is what I have read from visitors to his home.)..

The Wilson Music Room has indeed employed a Parasound on the subs over the years. In the early days of the WAMM Master Chronosonic and the Masters Subsonics, the Parasound was replaced by d'Agostino S250. Though the S250 is a substantial improvement in the system performance, the Parasound has always been a stellar performer on Wilson subs.

 

[gian60]

I find very strange this bass problem.

In my system now the bass of my speaker Montagna is perfect with my M1.

In the system of my friend with CH and Wilson Alexandria,after some improvment in cables and second X1 for P1,rack,ec,ecc, the bass with A1 mono with Wilson Alexandria is very very good,fast deep,controlled.

I listen in CH room L10,M 10 stereo and Alumine 5 and i founded very good bass,seems perfect,full,fast,deep,controlled.
So i dont understand Marty problem
To understand better i suggest to try L1 preamp and another phono.

If problem is same with phono and digital,is not a phono problem
Or could be Soulution preamp has magic midhigh sound with M 10 but bass is not a good match

 

[sbnx]

Hello Marty,

One idea. This will involve some work but I thought I would suggest just in case you love the midrange on the CH to a degree that you would be willing to go to great lengths to keep it.

To me the bass you hear is the interaction of the speaker and room. The amount of bass the speaker puts out is dependent on the amplifier. I assume that you positioned your speakers with an amplifier that has some level of feedback (e.g. Solution, JC1 or something else). I think you could reposition your speakers to find a spot where the bass (with zero feedback) engages the room more and provides a more satisfactory result.

Best of luck finding the magic.

 

[andromedaaudio]

To understand better i suggest to try L1 preamp and another phono.

+ 1, A 92 db efficiency / 2 ohm min impedance speaker ( a bit on the low side okay)
But with a 78 kg external power supply you d think the amp should have plenty reserves/ control for the bass no matter what .
I d try like Gian says with a cd player/ digital first as this has no possibility of low freq roll of on its own ( 20 hz - 20 khz flat ), and if that doesnt work the L1 / or L1O

Ps i d try the L1O ( L1 ) regardless of this problem to aim for maximum performance.

 

[dminches]

Marty had no bass issues with the JC1+ so I don’t know how it can be the room.

One would think that one wouldn’t have to make so many changes with a $176k pair of mono blocks in order to achieve great bass performance if the same was accomplished with a significantly less expensive amp.

I feel Marty’s frustration.

 

[LL21]

Likewise Lloyd, I love reading your Koda updates as well. It was something that certainly crossed my mind to consider, as it should have, but I'm not sure it will put out a clean KW which I now clearly see is the realm of what I need for concert hall levels on the 92 dB efficient Alexx V. The preamp however...heh, heh, heh....well let's see how all this transpires. Honestly, the Soulution 725 is a great fit for the moment.

I hear you, Marty. There is a reason why I think we tend to read comments about [well designed] 1000-watt amps nearly always refer to absolute power corrupting absolutely.

I would love to hear what 1000 watts does myself. I suspect it is kind of like going up to the Arrakis or the 4-tower speaker systems. There is something (and this, I have experienced in the Genesis Ones and the Arrakis) about what happens when you remove significantly more physical boundaries for a system...there is an instant appeal to the newfound freedom of sound, expression but also SCALE that you discover.

At the same time, once we have our major boundaries set, then the next major dimension to explore is how finely we can recreate music WITHIN that system of limitations.

For me, the Robert Koda was about exactly that: honing -- honing the nuance of expression, detail, decay and eliminating both noise floor and other things that create 'tension' in the sound. ...an exceptional 230 watts of Pure Class A to keep the outer limitations 'largely' at bay...but really enabling me to really explore the inner detail of musical works.

 

[LL21]

The Wilson Music Room has indeed employed a Parasound on the subs over the years. In the early days of the WAMM Master Chronosonic and the Masters Subsonics, the Parasound was replaced by d'Agostino S250. Though the S250 is a substantial improvement in the system performance, the Parasound has always been a stellar performer on Wilson subs.

Thanks for that! Very very interesting to get confirmation. BTW, I am intending to hear the XVX in a few weeks...just trying to find a time in the diary. Ricardo and Pedro along with our dealer have kindly issued the invitation when they came over to install the Robert Koda K160s...who was I to say no? In fact, I thought it would be positively impolite to refuse!

 

[marty]

Marty had no bass issues with the JC1+ so I don’t know how it can be the room.

One would think that one wouldn’t have to make so many changes with a $176k pair of mono blocks in order to achieve great bass performance if the same was accomplished with a significantly less expensive amp.

I feel Marty’s frustration.

Absolutely. This is not a room placement issue. This is about an amp with lackluster bass in the extreme (with zero global feedback) as opposed to a phenomenal bass amp (JC1+) although in all fairness we don’t know how much global or local feedback is used in that design.

 

[ddk]

Hi Marty,
Just noticed this thread, CONGRATS!

david

 

[Tango]

With my 40+ years audio experience. If you cannot find way for the new amp to work in your happy equation. I recommend selling the new amps. Take out the new variable and not writing a new equation. Changing pre then you might have to change the Lampi that you adore. And then possibly the whole equation.

Oh. i was a bit over myself i dont have 40+ years experience.

 

[matakana]

Thanks for that! Very very interesting to get confirmation. BTW, I am intending to hear the XVX in a few weeks...just trying to find a time in the diary. Ricardo and Pedro along with our dealer have kindly issued the invitation when they came over to install the Robert Koda K160s...who was I to say no? In fact, I thought it would be positively impolite to refuse!

That should be an unforgettable day for you. BTW have you heard much of Brian Rives of Pinewood audio, just wondering if hes still around?

 

[dcathro]

Absolutely. This is not a room placement issue. This is about an amp with lackluster bass in the extreme (with zero global feedback) as opposed to a phenomenal bass amp (JC1+) although in all fairness we don’t know how much global or local feedback is used in that design.

So what level of feedback do you need to get the same bass as the JC1+?

 

[marty]

So what level of feedback do you need to get the same bass as the JC1+?

There is no level of feedback that will do that. The JC1+ bass is in a class by itself (and the rest of the range isn't too far behind the M10). The greatest difference between the amps is not the sound. It's the value proposition.

 

[dcathro]

There is no level of feedback that will do that. The JC1+ bass is in a class by itself (and the rest of the range isn't too far behind the M10). The greatest difference between the amps is not the sound. It's the value proposition.

I am sorry to hear that!

You don't mind paying the extra if it is obviously better, not better but worse.

I hope you can find some way that it will work for you.

 

[MadFloyd]

Wow, what a story!

What does your dealer have to say about this?

I’m also curious what you didn’t like about the JC1s that prompted the switch.

May I ask what the M10s are sitting on and whether you are using the spikes or not?

I’m not sure what type of bass you’re looking for but I can say that my experience has been that I can transform the bass performance without touching the global feedback dial. I guess it might depend on whether your talking about the volume of bass or quality.

I have recently experienced amazing upgrades to bass performance using HRS products, specifically M3X2 platforms equipped with G7 footers and Nimbus footers between the amps and platforms. Obviously I have different speakers and preamp but I’m bewildered at the notion that the quality of the bass is sub par. You have not mentioned which gain setting you are using and since that effects bass performance I’m curious what your experience has been there.

The bass articulation I hear in my system is excellent.

 

[Al M.]

Wow, what a story!

What does your dealer have to say about this?

I’m also curious what you didn’t like about the JC1s that prompted the switch.

May I ask what the M10s are sitting on and whether you are using the spikes or not?

I’m not sure what type of bass you’re looking for but I can say that my experience has been that I can transform the bass performance without touching the global feedback dial. I guess it might depend on whether your talking about the volume of bass or quality.

I have recently experienced amazing upgrades to bass performance using HRS products, specifically M3X2 platforms equipped with G7 footers and Nimbus footers between the amps and platforms. Obviously I have different speakers and preamp but I’m bewildered at the notion that the quality of the bass is sub par. You have not mentioned which gain setting you are using and since that effects bass performance I’m curious what your experience has been there.

The bass articulation I hear in my system is excellent.

I can confirm that the platforms and footers that Ian mentioned make a huge difference. Also footers vs spikes. I've heard it all in Ian's system.