Hello Marty. Some great posts thanks you! Can you take some pics of your system, then I can put this in the Newsletter.
Alexx V arrive in NJ
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Steve Williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Post pictures of your grid and allocator in your system. I know your room very well and pictures would be very helpful for me to understand your comments.
The Schnerzinger Grid Protector and spectrum noise analysis
For those of you following the reports on the Schnerzinger products that some of us found to be useful adjuncts in our systems, I thought you might find the additional information below beneficial as well. As some readers of my previous post may know, I always welcome objective data that might help us better understand the mechanism(s) that may account for the subjective improvements we hear from some pieces of gear. When it comes to classical electronics such as preamps, amps or even DACs, multiple measurements that have been made on countless pieces of equipment for decades are quite well understood in terms of how they relate to sonic performance; frequency and phase response, and distortion for example, are well-trodden examples. However, for some pieces of gear, wrapping our heads around measurements to explain the sonic performance we hear from some components such as, say, grounding boxes or other pieces of “voodoo” are often not obvious or as well understood. In many instances, knowing what to measure or how to measure these devices remains elusive.
It seems that some of the Schnerzinger products fall into this category. This may be, in part, because they are not particularly forthcoming about their technology and as a result, since it’s not clear how they do what they do, few labs have endeavored to measure these devices objectively in such a way that might help explain their purported sonic benefits.
This post deals specifically with the Grid Protector (GP). My limited understanding of this device as shared by folks I consider knowledgeable in the space, is that the GP is designed to deal with the frequencies that are associated with your power delivery system including earthing, supply frequency and switching harmonics. In North America and some other regions, AC mains power runs at 60 Hz. (In Europe and many other parts of the world, it’s 50 Hz). Therefore reflection waves present in your power cables, boards, plugs, etc, including material changes & terminations will have reflections not only of the fundamental 60 Hz frequency but harmonics like 120Hz (2nd order), 180Hz (3rd order), 240Hz (4th order) etc.. The GP is designed to cancel these harmonics up to the 20th order. These are considered to be “lower frequencies”. Most importantly, the GP can have varied results, depending on the radiated harmonics in a specific room.
I’ve previously shared that I found the GP device to be sonically beneficial in my system. However, below is some actual data that I think helps me understand why this device provides the sonic benefits I and many others have experienced.
To begin, we need to understand what I am measuring in the graphs below and how I measured them. What I am measuring is simply the noise in my system using an iPhone and a “Spectrum analyzer” program from Onyx3 that is readily available from the App store for $19.99. (It used to be free. Oh well…).
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/spectrum-analyzer-rta/id490078884
(There is nothing special or magic about this program. There are many good inexpensive spectrum analyzers available from the App store that will work equally well.)
So what did I find? What we see in the graphs below is simply the spectral analysis of noise in my system with nothing playing through the DAC input on my Soulution 727 pre-amp (feeding Gryphon Mephisto monoblocs and Wilson Alexx V speakers w JL Audio Gotham subs) with the gain wide open. On the graphs, the X axis is frequency (Hz) and the Y axis is sound level (dB). The iPhone is laying on the speaker between the tweeter and lower midrange driver. The most important piece of information is not the location of the iphone microphone but that that this set-up is measuring the noise coming through the speakers being run at FULL GAIN (maximum output) of the preamp. If any actual music was playing with this amount of gain, the drivers would like either blow up or jump out of the cabinet. Again, we are not measuring any music signal, only noise, So while your first thought might be that this looks like a rather unimpressive and high noise level, keep in mind that at a listening level that is reasonably loud (i.e 90dB of orchestral music at the listening position), the meter would typically show levels in the -90dB range across the entire spectrum when no music is playing. Thus, in reality, this is a quiet system whereby noise is just not easily discernable at the listening position at any reasonable volume level. (If it were, I’d likely have to take the express train to an audiophile rehab facility for anti-depressants. Believe me, I’ve come close more than once- noise is a bitch!….).
For those of you following the reports on the Schnerzinger products that some of us found to be useful adjuncts in our systems, I thought you might find the additional information below beneficial as well. As some readers of my previous post may know, I always welcome objective data that might help us better understand the mechanism(s) that may account for the subjective improvements we hear from some pieces of gear. When it comes to classical electronics such as preamps, amps or even DACs, multiple measurements that have been made on countless pieces of equipment for decades are quite well understood in terms of how they relate to sonic performance; frequency and phase response, and distortion for example, are well-trodden examples. However, for some pieces of gear, wrapping our heads around measurements to explain the sonic performance we hear from some components such as, say, grounding boxes or other pieces of “voodoo” are often not obvious or as well understood. In many instances, knowing what to measure or how to measure these devices remains elusive.
It seems that some of the Schnerzinger products fall into this category. This may be, in part, because they are not particularly forthcoming about their technology and as a result, since it’s not clear how they do what they do, few labs have endeavored to measure these devices objectively in such a way that might help explain their purported sonic benefits.
This post deals specifically with the Grid Protector (GP). My limited understanding of this device as shared by folks I consider knowledgeable in the space, is that the GP is designed to deal with the frequencies that are associated with your power delivery system including earthing, supply frequency and switching harmonics. In North America and some other regions, AC mains power runs at 60 Hz. (In Europe and many other parts of the world, it’s 50 Hz). Therefore reflection waves present in your power cables, boards, plugs, etc, including material changes & terminations will have reflections not only of the fundamental 60 Hz frequency but harmonics like 120Hz (2nd order), 180Hz (3rd order), 240Hz (4th order) etc.. The GP is designed to cancel these harmonics up to the 20th order. These are considered to be “lower frequencies”. Most importantly, the GP can have varied results, depending on the radiated harmonics in a specific room.
I’ve previously shared that I found the GP device to be sonically beneficial in my system. However, below is some actual data that I think helps me understand why this device provides the sonic benefits I and many others have experienced.
To begin, we need to understand what I am measuring in the graphs below and how I measured them. What I am measuring is simply the noise in my system using an iPhone and a “Spectrum analyzer” program from Onyx3 that is readily available from the App store for $19.99. (It used to be free. Oh well…).
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/spectrum-analyzer-rta/id490078884
(There is nothing special or magic about this program. There are many good inexpensive spectrum analyzers available from the App store that will work equally well.)
So what did I find? What we see in the graphs below is simply the spectral analysis of noise in my system with nothing playing through the DAC input on my Soulution 727 pre-amp (feeding Gryphon Mephisto monoblocs and Wilson Alexx V speakers w JL Audio Gotham subs) with the gain wide open. On the graphs, the X axis is frequency (Hz) and the Y axis is sound level (dB). The iPhone is laying on the speaker between the tweeter and lower midrange driver. The most important piece of information is not the location of the iphone microphone but that that this set-up is measuring the noise coming through the speakers being run at FULL GAIN (maximum output) of the preamp. If any actual music was playing with this amount of gain, the drivers would like either blow up or jump out of the cabinet. Again, we are not measuring any music signal, only noise, So while your first thought might be that this looks like a rather unimpressive and high noise level, keep in mind that at a listening level that is reasonably loud (i.e 90dB of orchestral music at the listening position), the meter would typically show levels in the -90dB range across the entire spectrum when no music is playing. Thus, in reality, this is a quiet system whereby noise is just not easily discernable at the listening position at any reasonable volume level. (If it were, I’d likely have to take the express train to an audiophile rehab facility for anti-depressants. Believe me, I’ve come close more than once- noise is a bitch!….).
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What the full gain noise (C weighted) displayed below provides however, is a graph that easily helps identify noise at certain frequencies and conveniently allows for easy comparison under different conditions. In this case, the two conditions are simply 1) no Grid Protector in the system (-) shown on the left and 2) with the Grid Protector is in the system (+) shown on the right.
I think there are two main observations worth noting.
Without the GP in the system, the noise is -57.-60 and -58db at 60, 120 and 180 Hz respectively. With the GP in the system, the noise is -66, -59 and -69dB at those same frequencies. Put another way, that’s a 9dB drop in noise at 60 Hz and an 11 dB drop in noise at 180 Hz. This is noteworthy since it demonstrates the GP attenuates noise selectively, particularly as it relates to harmonics of the AC power grid. One can easily see that the 2nd order (120Hz) and 4th order (240Hz) levels remain essentially unchanged. I don’t know what you call it, but I’m inclined to call that selective noise reduction that is not only unambiguous but significant and frankly, pretty damn impressive.
Nest, if you look at the noise level spectrum below ~45-50Hz down to the lower limits of the frequencies measured (which might certainly be limited by the mic and/or electronics in the iPhone), there’s an impressive decrease in noise throughout the low frequencies of about 10-12dB. I found that impressive as well.
For me, it’s tempting to consider some causal correlation between the frequency dependent noise improvements the GP confers, and the sonic benefits that result from the GP in the system. For example, it has long been reported that the 3rd order harmonic distortion can have sonic adverse consequences. If that’s true, it therefore seems reasonable that a 9 dB drop in noise in the fundamental AC frequency of 60 Hz and an 11 dB drop in the 3rd order harmonic(180Hz) might help explain why the GP has been described as providing musical benefits such as a greater sense of clarity and improved spatial localization of music. Furthermore, its also easy to understand how a 10d/b lowering of noise in the lower bass frequencies can might provide the basis for why many think the GP provides increased definition in the bass (and perhaps provide increased clarity at higher frequencies).
In conclusion, I am intrigued by the objective observations in frequency-dependent noise reduction resulting from the addition of the GP in my system. Moreover, I’m inclined to think these objective improvements in noise levels provides good support for the music benefits the GP confers in my system. However, you are certainly free to draw your own conclusions.
Next up, I’m wondering if I can apply a similar approach to unraveling the sonic intricacies of the EMI protector, which like the newest Reflector product, is designed to negate the harmful effects of higher frequencies like radio, streaming services, mobile devices connecting to the network, power transformer (on the pole outside) radiated emissions, and other sources of “electrosmog”. All system dependent, of course! We shall see.
I think there are two main observations worth noting.
Without the GP in the system, the noise is -57.-60 and -58db at 60, 120 and 180 Hz respectively. With the GP in the system, the noise is -66, -59 and -69dB at those same frequencies. Put another way, that’s a 9dB drop in noise at 60 Hz and an 11 dB drop in noise at 180 Hz. This is noteworthy since it demonstrates the GP attenuates noise selectively, particularly as it relates to harmonics of the AC power grid. One can easily see that the 2nd order (120Hz) and 4th order (240Hz) levels remain essentially unchanged. I don’t know what you call it, but I’m inclined to call that selective noise reduction that is not only unambiguous but significant and frankly, pretty damn impressive.
Nest, if you look at the noise level spectrum below ~45-50Hz down to the lower limits of the frequencies measured (which might certainly be limited by the mic and/or electronics in the iPhone), there’s an impressive decrease in noise throughout the low frequencies of about 10-12dB. I found that impressive as well.
For me, it’s tempting to consider some causal correlation between the frequency dependent noise improvements the GP confers, and the sonic benefits that result from the GP in the system. For example, it has long been reported that the 3rd order harmonic distortion can have sonic adverse consequences. If that’s true, it therefore seems reasonable that a 9 dB drop in noise in the fundamental AC frequency of 60 Hz and an 11 dB drop in the 3rd order harmonic(180Hz) might help explain why the GP has been described as providing musical benefits such as a greater sense of clarity and improved spatial localization of music. Furthermore, its also easy to understand how a 10d/b lowering of noise in the lower bass frequencies can might provide the basis for why many think the GP provides increased definition in the bass (and perhaps provide increased clarity at higher frequencies).
In conclusion, I am intrigued by the objective observations in frequency-dependent noise reduction resulting from the addition of the GP in my system. Moreover, I’m inclined to think these objective improvements in noise levels provides good support for the music benefits the GP confers in my system. However, you are certainly free to draw your own conclusions.
Next up, I’m wondering if I can apply a similar approach to unraveling the sonic intricacies of the EMI protector, which like the newest Reflector product, is designed to negate the harmful effects of higher frequencies like radio, streaming services, mobile devices connecting to the network, power transformer (on the pole outside) radiated emissions, and other sources of “electrosmog”. All system dependent, of course! We shall see.
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Steve Williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
You should consider eliminating the wall wart and use DC POWER
And you should definitely have them elevated. You’ve never commented if yours are off the ground
I’m looking forward to the Reflector as I got a private email this week from someone who has used it extensively. His comments to me were that the Reflector was the most significant component he has used in over 30 years of listening. And this was not sent by a dealer or distributor
And you should definitely have them elevated. You’ve never commented if yours are off the ground
I’m looking forward to the Reflector as I got a private email this week from someone who has used it extensively. His comments to me were that the Reflector was the most significant component he has used in over 30 years of listening. And this was not sent by a dealer or distributor
Like everything else, one's experience with these devices is highly system dependent. In my system, 40 inches was too high for maximum benefit. If the Grid protector helps remove the "electrosmog" from the power grid, my guess is that most folks have their gear on shelves in racks somewhat lower than 40 inches. In addition, AC receptacles are typically 15 inches off the floor. So for me, placing the GP at about 20 inches off the floor (with the antenna protruding another 4" above the GP) is optimum. That also seems to correspond to the approximate height for the center of the "hornet's nest" of power cable density behind my gear. Honestly, I don't think there's one height that's right and another that is wrong. I didn't think it was a notable issue since it's one of those "whatever sounds best" issues which is only guidance the company gives regarding settings for any of their products.
Steve Williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
The 40” height for me was the icing on the cake. We are going to disagree on this. However I have more boxes than you. I must admit some videos I saw of the Reflector showed it on the floor and in one case in front of the speaker. That’s not in my plan. My reflectors will be either behind or in front of my amps a stands like my others and another behind my chair It’s interesting the reflector is directional and must face the listener.
I don't think there's a big difference between 24" and 40" off the floor for the Grid Protector. Whatever works best in your system is the right answer. As far as the Reflector, I'm afraid I don't have any interest in trying them as they are an enhancement of the technology used in the EMI Protector which I didn't think was beneficial in my system. This could be because I am in a rural environment where there is not a lot of electrosmog so YMMV makes some sense. I just couldn't find any position or setting with the EMI whereby the sound improved. In fact, any setting greater than "1" it had a negative effect whereby naturalness diminished and distortion was significantly increased at higher volumes. (I never use wall warts, only LPS and never tried batteries). For me, the GP and Allocator work beautifully. What was nice about the EMI protector is that I could place it right in front of me as I listened, and make switch changes to hear the comparative effects instantly. However, the EMI protector was unfortunately more of an obvious sonic detriment than an enhancement. Perhaps if I lived in a more "polluted" suburban or urban environment, the EMI protector would have shown some benefit, but for now, my journey down this rabbit hole is effectively concluded.
It would be interesting and arguably more valuable to run the same comparison at a volume you listen at, maybe max volume to see if there's any measurable difference. I'd argue there is not.
Secondly, what is the correlation between the height of a device and sonic performance?
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