A ProgRock evening with JBL 4312SE speakers

[Audiophile Bill]

These will work quite well...... View attachment 50943 View attachment 50944

I bet they will indeed work really well.

 

[shakti]

These will work quite well...... View attachment 50943 View attachment 50944

I saw the pictures before, love them!,
heard the M2 once and too see now the great M2 horn in such a concept is very promissing!

 

[Duke LeJeune]

These will work quite well...... View attachment 50943 View attachment 50944

I bet they would! PBN, is that right?

I absolute loved the more conventional HWW version shown at RMAF last October. Have you heard both? If so, how do their presentations differ?

 

[MRJAZZ]

I bet they would! PBN, is that right?

I absolute loved the more conventional HWW version shown at RMAF last October. Have you heard both? If so, how do their presentations differ?

Yes.........
The Symmetrical array (Dapolito) is 35 K MSR versus 30 K for the HWW. Sonically the Symmetrical is more open, spacious and generally more three dimensional.... both are superb and have few peers, ( and no superiors, that I have heard....and there’s not much that I haven’t heard) at their respective price points ( 30 k HWW, 35 K Symmetrical).....
Cheers...

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Yes.........
The Symmetrical array (Dapolito) is 35 K MSR versus 30 K for the HWW. Sonically the Symmetrical is more open, spacious and generally more three dimensional.... both are superb and have few peers, ( and no superiors, that I have heard....and there’s not much that I haven’t heard) at their respective price points ( 30 k HWW, 35 K Symmetrical).....
Cheers...

Thank you for the additional information. Being a speaker manufacturer myself, imo the BEST thing about these big PBN speakers is, they are north of my price range so I don't have to compete against them!

I built some big custom symmetrical WHW's for recording studios a few years ago. They were destined for big metal stands but initially they sat on the floor of my living room. I heard the image at the height of the upper woofer (with eyes closed), but my wife heard the image at the height of the horn (again eyes closed). This discrepancy has puzzled me. Anyway it looks like Peter has the horn at seated ear height so it wouldn't be an issue.

I assume the Symmetrical is a true 2-way (both woofers running all the way up to the crossover frequency).

Do you know whether the M2!5 a "2.5 way" as its name seems to imply, with the lower woofer rolling off considerably below the crossover region?

 

[MRJAZZ]

Thank you for the additional information. Being a speaker manufacturer myself, imo the BEST thing about these big PBN speakers is, they are north of my price range so I don't have to compete against them!

I built some big custom symmetrical WHW's for recording studios a few years ago. They were destined for big metal stands but initially they sat on the floor of my living room. I heard the image at the height of the upper woofer (with eyes closed), but my wife heard the image at the height of the horn (again eyes closed). This discrepancy has puzzled me. Anyway it looks like Peter has the horn at seated ear height so it wouldn't be an issue.

I assume the Symmetrical is a true 2-way (both woofers running all the way up to the crossover frequency.

Do you know whether the M2!5 a "2.5 way" as its name seems to imply, with the lower woofer rolling off considerably below the crossover region?

I believe both woofers operate full range up till they transition to the horn (approximately 800HZ.......

 

[Robh3606]

I believe both woofers operate full range up till the transition to the horn (approximately 800HZ....... "

That would make sense. Love that waveguide works well with passive EQ you don't need DSP like the M2 to get a good solution for CD compensation. Can't believe JBL sells them!?

Rob

 

[Duke LeJeune]

I believe both woofers operate full range up till the transition to the horn (approximately 800HZ....... "

Very interesting. I think you are correct; I looked at the crossover-under-plexiglass on the back of the cabinet and don't recall seeing the monster inductor that a 2.5 way configuration would imply.

I heard no vertical discontinuity from a fairly close listening distance at RMAF, so evidently their crossover is low enough that that's not an issue.

Peter was doing something in the pair he showed at RMAF last year, in addition to his charge-coupled capacitors, that really caught me by surprise. I'm not sure he'd want me to spill the beans about it, so I will just say that his crossover design is EXTREMELY thorough!!

Can't believe JBL sells them[the waveguides]!?

My guess is that Peter Noerbaek has friends at JBL. Really good friends.

 

[Robh3606]

"Peter was doing something in the pair he showed at RMAF last year, in addition to his charge-coupled capacitors, that really caught me by surprise. I'm not sure he'd want me to spill the beans about it, so I will just say that his crossover design is EXTREMELY thorough!!'

CC networks have been used in JBL statement speaker crossovers since the 80's. I have used them in my DIY and clone system upgrades for years. If you go over to Lansing Heritage they are all over the site. Also really easy to convert an existing crossover you can use either a battery or diodes. Gets expensive though, as you double the values and capacitor count. It's just a T with a pair or capacitors with a 3 meg resistor in the bottom leg to the hot side of a 9 volt battery negative to ground as a quick example. I would assume he is using the same configuration as JBL.

As far as the crossover with a typical large format CD it's a parametric compensation. So a parallel notch here and a series notch and your are pretty much done. It's a great DIY waveguide that is not hard to work with.

This is where I got mine! Go figure especially in production quantities! Look what else they have! Just by all the parts!

https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-m2-horn-lens-5025594/

Rob

 

[Duke LeJeune]

As far as the crossover with a typical large format CD it's a parametric compensation. So a parallel notch here and a series notch and your are pretty much done. It's a great DIY waveguide that is not hard to work with.

Is that your highpass network? Verrry interesting response shaping circuit that bypasses your fixed L-pad. Nice job!!

This is where I got mine! Go figure especially in production quantities! Look what else they have! Just by all the parts!

https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-m2-horn-lens-5025594/

I had NO IDEA they were available over-the-counter! Just sent an e-mail inquiry. I'll do my own crossover of course!

THANK YOU!!

Edit: Speaker Exchange doesn't get the JBL waveguide in quantity nor do they sell it in quantity, and if I were to use it in a commercial product, I would not be allowed to advertise that product. So it's practical for DIYers, but not for a small manufacturer. That's okay, I'm already moving in a different direction anyway.

 

[Robh3606]

Thanks! It's based on Greg Timbers "Key" crossover that he used to work out CD comps for the 9800 system. He was kind enough to share it with us. LEAP is awesome software. It makes things so much easier.

Amazing isn't it!

Rob

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Thanks! It's based on Greg Timbers "Key" crossover that he used to work out CD comps for the 9800 system. He was kind enough to share it with us. LEAP is awesome software. It makes things so much easier.

LEAP is what I use too.

Too bad we lost Chris Strahm.

 

[Robh3606]

LEAP is what I use too.

Too bad we lost Chris Strahm.

Yes it is a shame.

Rob

 

[Addicted to hifi]

After many hours listening to music with my current set ups of the last years,
I decided to look into my record collection with an alternative view.

As my space is limited, the idea was, to identify records, which I have not heard for years and to eliminate them from my collection to get some spare space for new records.

But instead I was finding many records I liked a lot many many years ago, but have not heard for whatever reason, but no chance to give them away, as I liked them a lot..., many years ago.

The most of the records were recorded between the early 70's and the mid 80's.

Listening to them on my Maxx3 make's only minor fun, it was not, like I have known them before...

Bands, like:

- Mandala Band
- Sweet Smoke
- Irene Papas/Vangelis
- Mahavishnu Orchestra
- Caravan
- Kansas
- Paice Aston Lord
- Rainbow
- Deep Purple
- Gong
- Genesis
- Rick Wakeman
- Supertramp

to name a view , never hit my heart while listening over some High End gear.

But I liked them many years ago, some of them even because of the sound!

Than I met a friend , who works as a professional sound engineer and he starts to explain it in a way, which was a new view for me. That the most of my records of concern were most likely recorded with the old JBL studio Monitor generation, like 4310 or 4311. This JBL Monitors were never really neutral, so doing a mix with this kind of speakers would add to the mix a kind of equalization, that the result heart over this speakers becomes like the original sound played while recording.
That was interesting, I never thought about.

He explained further, that the later "new romantic" "new wave" music genre was influenced from the than popular monitors like Yamaha NS1000 with a different sound DNA and a resulting different "equalization.

And the best way to enjoy this type of music should be, to listen to them with a speaker, which is conceptional similar to the former recording situation. It must not be the same, as a situation in a studio is different from home, also the purpose of listening to the music is different. At home you like to enjoy, in the mixing studio you like to do your job and to do a proper mix. But at least a similar speaker concept/DNA.


Just by chance I had the opportunity to buy a pair of JBL 4312se speakers of the 70 year anniversary series .


http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/jbl-4312se-standmount-loudspeaker/


I placed them in my small listening room (16 to 20sqm) and started to listen to them
(old Meridian stuff, an old direct drive turntable with Shure 95 cart, Harman Kardon Tape deck)

And whow!

It was working!

I was listing to my formerly beloved Music as I was remembering this music!, And I was enjoying.

The music just sounds "right" and even better, than I was remembering. The newer JBL generation speakers obviously do have better parts and are more "neutral" on one side, on the other side, they are close enough to the historic speakers to produce a result on this old ProgRock records which is just perfect

It looks like, that I have to investigate further and to try a bigger JBL speaker out of the current range.

If it ends up, that I will host a second and different gear in separate room to enjoy 100% of my record collection...,
fine with me

music example:

Very nice speakers.