It's a liability to advertising income on this site. There may be personal liability if you verge on slander but IANAL.
Personally I think the issue of dishonest industry members who attempt to fool others is beyound the reality of what actually is the case and this thread is largely click-bait. There are the self-righteous who think they are exposing great injustice with generalisations. There are those who think the man is out to get them. There are the gullible who may make poor decisions and look for either payback or someone to plead their case. And there are rabble-rousers who like to stir the pot with inflammatory statements.
What I don't see is many people coming forward to describe how they personally were cheated or stolen from. Yes there are maybe a handful of threads saying "don't do business with so and so"' that do name names. But this level of hue and cry strikes me as florid and over-wrought.
not all that’s wrong is from stealing or cheating in fact I’m sure that’s a very small percentage
What is corrupt is the information exchange and or the lack of it or the perversion of such.
People are concerned with speaking out because of possible retribution .
I don’t remember exactly the quote but it has something to do with don’t pick a fight with someone that has barrels of ink.
What is reported versus what isnt
Who gets praise and press and who doesnt
Influence - how it’s done by various methods
I can say that many small distributors and manufacturers have to weigh a lot of factors and for the most part the juice isn’t worth the squeeze
And I don’t think most would accept it
“ you can’t handle the truth”
Is audio any different than today’s news?
Hello Anton, I for one would like to know who those manufacturers are, what exactly do you fear to not want to divulge your thoughts? This is not specifically directed at you but honesty and transparency should also be expected from us forum members, withholding relevant information if you have it only adds to the problem.
I do not know the lay of the land here well enough to know where I land on this issue, relative to other people's sensibilities. (It might be like me trying to say that I like the sound of a record player over at Audio Science Review.)
Also, I admit my opinions may be idiosyncratic, so no need for me to be 'negative' when there is so much fun to had here!
Fair enough. We can agree to disagree on what’s important . By the way, I wish all we could talk about is gear that could be great for us, but again so much misinformation in finding that gear…
PS. I find the “dirt” when I search for gear, and time is precious and expensive… read the raves about Magico q - analytical to hang your self from chandelier… read hype about $30k taiko computer and it consistently gets thrashed by $3k cd transport from China..
I'm just a lowly consumer who doesn't claim golden ears or deep insights, so I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm not smart enough to participate here-a conclusion many of you likely reached after reading my first post. To my primitive understanding, the OP only called for sellers to be honest about release dates, not take money for products not yet fully designed and tested, and to otherwise deal with customers with integrity. That, it seems to me, is just basic honesty and is probably the law in most states. I would think anything less is unacceptable and manufacturers or dealers who don't demonstrate this level of honesty should be called out by name. I don't understand why Ron's post is at all controversial.
This is me as well. But having read forums for a few years and shopped with and purchased a (by many standards small volume but not small dollars) I totally get the gist of this thread.
Most relatively educated people would say "caveat emptor." This is complicated in this crazy hi fi world for a few reasons. Including difficulty of arranging trials, difficulty of arranging a vs. b listening tests, the prevalence of lofty claims be they totally accurate, mostly accurate, mostly inflated, or totally farcical, the inability of us lowly consumers to judge where on that spectrum the claims lie . . . and THEN we get to the self-promotion of one's own business or products (whether veiled, thinly, or not). Not to mention prevalence of the "if you haven't heard it you can't have an opinion" positions.
So what are us lowly consumers to do? For me - I read for entertainment, read for education (with a filter), and listen to a lot of music at home. And I have a nice small network of "hi fi friends" who are pretty fair about discussing their preferences, what they hear, and why they buy what they buy.
Bartolo 1 I do the same-read lots of reviews, etc, attended SWAF and going to Capital Audiofest. I read the forums, listen to podcasts of people that seem reliable, etc. I take all the reviews with a grain of salt, but find them entertaining-sometimes informative. Lots of folks have good luck buying used gear from Audiogon, etc. I'm not opposed to used gear, but would most likely buy from a dealer. Its a bit distressing to read about these alleged "shills" on WBF and other forums, particularly when some say "everyone" knows who they are-I don't. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any hifi clubs, etc. in my area-that would be a great resource. I work with a dealer who I trust and respect which is reassuring.
As I said previously, Ron's original post seemed unremarkable to me-calling for basic business ethics.
Bartolo 1 I do the same-read lots of reviews, etc, attended SWAF and going to Capital Audiofest. I read the forums, listen to podcasts of people that seem reliable, etc. I take all the reviews with a grain of salt, but find them entertaining-sometimes informative. Lots of folks have good luck buying used gear from Audiogon, etc. I'm not opposed to used gear, but would most likely buy from a dealer. Its a bit distressing to read about these alleged "shills" on WBF
the accuser was repeatedly called out to reveal the receipts he claimed to have about this and just deflected about it with more inuendo attacks. just a blogger seeking click bait. maybe his main legit blogging subject matter is not sufficient to raise his YouTube activity, so being controversial is another way to get attention. how the world works now.
Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any hifi clubs, etc. in my area-that would be a great resource. I work with a dealer who I trust and respect which is reassuring.
As I said previously, Ron's original post seemed unremarkable to me-calling for basic business ethics.
As a manufacturer and distributor, our factories frequently encounter supply chain issues. For example, a manufacturer of a specialized part that we have used for years just notified us that they have discontinued it. Fortunately, we have an alternative vendor who can properly manufacture the part, so all is well. Often, a supply chain partner will claim they can produce, only to have overpromised, resulting in delays beyond our control. In such cases, effective communication with customers is essential.
On the subject of reviews and product promotion, WBF provides a valuable service to consumers, as they can at least check the views of buyers who have "written the check." Naturally, there can be confirmation bias, but it's undoubtedly a valuable opinion when someone has invested their hard-earned money and is sharing their thoughts. I often hear the word "shill" used, and no doubt they exist as a function of the internet age. In this case, I suggest checking if there is more than one party known to the members who are saying good things, and verifying if their systems and sonic priorities align with their own as a baseline. Of course, nothing beats hearing a product in one's home and system.
No Doubt, that communication is vital when things go wrong. Nothing worse, or more certain to create ill will, than being left in the dark. I think most consumers would understand that things happen, and if there is communication a short delay, a few days, a few weeks would probably be understood. As a consumer, however, at some point if the vendor can’t deliver anywhere close to the projected date the bargain fails. In that case, the consumer should have an option of a refund and shouldn’t be expected to wait for months beyond the original estimate unless he chooses to do so. To me, that’s just basic fairness, but maybe vendors have a different perspective.
I have made the comparison in multiple systems - streaming is an overly smooth, watered down sound that lacks solidity and a good bass foundation compared to even basic and 25 year old CD transports. And so have my friends - same results. I would encourage all audiophiles who want the best digital to do the same.
For those who choose to stream, I would encourage people not to follow the internet herds but to compare Taiko to Wadax, MSB's solution (which I also found superior to Taiko Extreme), Pink Faun, Antipodes, Grimm, etc.
... and there is no problem. it's healthy and alive. the status quo checks my boxes sufficiently. better than real life and seems to hold our attention...
Mike, I respectfully disagree with you. Aren't you a Dartzeel owner??!?? I am not a solid state guy, but Dartzeel is definitely some of the best solid state I heard. And look at what happened to them. It's a real shame. Surely, it hurts you that such an excellent brand is struggling. No?
And the whole industry seems to be in recession, post Covid sugar rush. So I am not sure where you get "healthy and alive"
When I read about a piece of gear that I may be interested in , I always ask myself , having a behavioral science background:
Why is it popular?
who’s pitching it?
how many people are pitching it?
how many people the diverse tastes pitching?
what "authorities"/ reviewers are owning the marketing for it?
and what combination of social networks and authority figures are talking about, which amplifies the influence
me too. managing my 6 figure monthly dealer ad budget, and participating in the 7 figure monthly dealer group ad budget decisions, for 30 plus years, everything was done scientifically and all sorts of behavior science was applied to every decision. the data had to both support the decision, and we needed proof in the result to continue. there were always changes in customer motivations we had to navigate.
Why is it popular?
who’s pitching it?
how many people are pitching it?
how many people the diverse tastes pitching?
what "authorities"/ reviewers are owning the marketing for it?
and what combination of social networks and authority figures are talking about, which amplifies the influence
i cannot argue with that hifi business cynicism.......it is one cold hearted realistic perspective. there are few things in life these days not vulnerable to those effects.
in system building how do we separate the hype from the real? it's headwind for us all. comes down to doing your own work as much as possible. but also we have to keep the joy and fun in it so we don't make it work.
But while a good dealer will have his own preferences, he will also have several brands to choose from and he will pay attention to the preferences of the customer. And there is user feedback here and other audiophile sites that alert us to gear.
This is exactly what happened to me. I had not heard about Grimm Audio until reading user feedback. Luckily, my usual audio dealer, whose ears I have come to trust, carried Grimm Audio and provided a demo unit. He himself prefers a different DAC at a very similar price, but the decision was mine to make (of course). He expressed his opinion and then never looked back. The customer is always right.
Every hobby has its peculiar culture and folks who simply follow the herd. That is human nature. But that needn't affect anyone who is truly curious.
I have made the comparison in multiple systems - streaming is an overly smooth, watered down sound that lacks solidity and a good bass foundation compared to even basic and 25 year old CD transports. And so have my friends - same results. I would encourage all audiophiles who want the best digital to do the same.
Even in those instances where I thought I heard great streaming (without the telltale synthetic, plasticky sound signature of suboptimal streaming) I have wondered why I don't quite hear the earthen solidity of my CD playback. Sure, the whole system configuration plays into this, but still. So you may have a point here.
And in general I wonder how good people's streaming is and how often it shapes their opinion of digital in the negative.
