A new star in 2019 : Innuos Statement Server

Hi asiufy: I look forward to your thoughts after listening to both Squeezelite and Roon.
Can you tell me why the DSP in Roon is such a negative? Does the DSP upsampling create sound quality issues relative to not engaging DSP?
Really appreciate your thoughts on this.
Thanks.
popspin
I find ANY DSD has a negative effect on sound quality. I use a no oversampling DAC and don't need up sampling or DSD conversion to negate the effect of a digital filter, as I don't have any in my DAC.

I do use some DSP on occasions, a bit of treble lift, about 1.5dB. If you have to use DSP for FR keep it subtle and as little curves as possible.
Tell tail signs of DSP negatives are the soundstage will collapse and generally layering and separation is reduced. I guess what is happening is the data is being 'resampled' to then create the modified steam. In all cases this has a negative effect on the sound IMO.

The only way using DSP having a positive effect IMO may be in DS DACs where the higher data rate could help the DAXC handle the digital filter / brick wall filter.
 

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
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Astro,

My Dac has 2 engines, one optimised for DSD and the other for PCM. I am never forced to choose.

DSP always seem to affect the mid/upper bass. You feel it most on vocals and like Chamber music. Everything is audio is a trade off.
 

admin

THE FIXER (I build websites)
Staff member
Mar 27, 2010
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Astro,

My Dac has 2 engines, one optimised for DSD and the other for PCM. I am never forced to choose.

DSP always seem to affect the mid/upper bass. You feel it most on vocals and like Chamber music. Everything is audio is a trade off.
Indeed. And why I don't use HQ Plater or any other process that up samples or resamples.
 

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
2,780
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Admin, many think that HQP sounds best fully native...no processing. There is also a move to tweak JRiver to beat them all...eliminating the BULK of Roon and the complexity of HQP.
 

asiufy

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Jul 8, 2011
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Ok, I misunderstood the UpnP x ROON.
So if you do not use Squeezelite, what UpnP server software has installed in Innuos to do the UpnP vs ROON test?
Innuos comes with a built-in UPNP server, I believe it's Asset UPNP.
 

nonesup

Active Member
Feb 16, 2017
342
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Spain
Ok, now it's all clear to me, thank you.
It occurs to me that since Asset belongs to the dbPoweramp company, maybe they are also using this software for the ripped. If that were correct, then the answer to the Microstip question, about the ripped check system, would be "AccurateRip", but Innuos would have to confirm it.
 
May 30, 2010
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Ok, now it's all clear to me, thank you.
It occurs to me that since Asset belongs to the dbPoweramp company, maybe they are also using this software for the ripped. If that were correct, then the answer to the Microstip question, about the ripped check system, would be "AccurateRip", but Innuos would have to confirm it.
It also occurred to me some weeks ago. Unfortunately I almost immediately found that it was not, so my insistence on this question that no one seems to able to answer ...

Please see https://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?39865-DBPoweramp-on-Innuos-ZEN-Mini-MKI
 
Apr 28, 2015
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popspin,

First, I don't know exactly why software affects sound quality. If I knew, I'd surely be working at it :)
But in general terms, more software/code is not desirable, and DSP is just more code in the "signal" path, and by disabling it (if you don't need it), Roon will have a smaller footprint on the server, and use less resources.
As I said earlier, I haven't tried the Squeezelite option, as that needs to output via USB, and I don't do USB anymore. At some point I might get the USB module into the MSB and try that, but not for now...
For now, I did try UPNP x Roon, and the results continue to be inconclusive. Some tracks do sound better via UPNP, but some don't. I have reinstated our UPNP infrastructure here in the store, so I'll continue with these tests..
One thing I found out is that Renderer v2 is actually OpenHome compatible, not only UPNP. This is huge, as it allows the use of much better control software, like Linn Kazoo.

cheers,
alex
Alex:
OK. I think I have a good handle on the uPNP software now. Appreciate your feedback. Thanks!
popspin
 
Apr 28, 2015
63
4
8
I find ANY DSD has a negative effect on sound quality. I use a no oversampling DAC and don't need up sampling or DSD conversion to negate the effect of a digital filter, as I don't have any in my DAC.

I do use some DSP on occasions, a bit of treble lift, about 1.5dB. If you have to use DSP for FR keep it subtle and as little curves as possible.
Tell tail signs of DSP negatives are the soundstage will collapse and generally layering and separation is reduced. I guess what is happening is the data is being 'resampled' to then create the modified steam. In all cases this has a negative effect on the sound IMO.

The only way using DSP having a positive effect IMO may be in DS DACs where the higher data rate could help the DAXC handle the digital filter / brick wall filter.
Hi astrostatr59:
That makes sense. Is this true for all DSP up sampling efforts from all manufacturers?
If you are using a PCM DAC there wouldn't be any advantage to using DSP. How about if you use a DSD DAC?
popspin
 
Hi astrostatr59:
That makes sense. Is this true for all DSP up sampling efforts from all manufacturers?
If you are using a PCM DAC there wouldn't be any advantage to using DSP. How about if you use a DSD DAC?
popspin
There is NO advantage in an NOS DAC to mess with the data. On DSD it seems another way to negate the dreaded filter, but in changing the PCM stream to DSD created it's own noise, so gets rid of some of one problem, and creates another one....

It is not the PCM DAC v DSD to use DSP or not, it is PCM NOS DAC and PCM DS DAC.
The fact DS DACs upsample DUE to the negative effect of their digital filter. Pushing up the data into the higher bandwidth lets the DAC handle the brick wall filter better. But I found all DS DACs have an unnatural sound to them and dropped out of that group to concentrate on NOS DACs with old chip sets such as the AD1865 NK.

This subject has been discussed world-wide for the last 10 years+ and finally more folk are realising we were conned by the audio industry on the ever increasing oversampling thing. Funny, right back at my first DAC I ever bought, it probably sounded better than every other DS DAC I bought since then, until I got back to more modern takes on NOS DACs.
 

asiufy

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Jul 8, 2011
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Francisco,

I finally heard back from Innuos. They claim their ripping software is their own, and they do not use Accuraterip or any other database to check accuracy. I will suggest that they do.

thanks,
Alex
 
May 30, 2010
15,437
668
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Francisco,

I finally heard back from Innuos. They claim their ripping software is their own, and they do not use Accuraterip or any other database to check accuracy. I will suggest that they do.

thanks,
Alex
Thanks Alex - you are officially confirming very bad news that I was also privately told yesterday by another server manufacturer. This option was unacceptable for me. As you said, it was not to the level I require at this level of price, I have returned it. I felt sorry, the sound quality was really very good. Fortunately I had only ripped a few CDs, that I have now deleted.
 

asiufy

Member Sponsor
Jul 8, 2011
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OK. I knew it was not the right product for you. Good luck on your search!
 
May 30, 2010
15,437
668
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Portugal
OK. I knew it was not the right product for you. Good luck on your search!
I still hope they will address my points sometime! I appreciate the hardware, I think that the software can easily be improved. Dealers pressure will surely help ... ;)
 

asiufy

Member Sponsor
Jul 8, 2011
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Oh I have nagged them plenty about a few other (software-related) matters, so this one will only add to the list. My main pet peeve is that they won't support AIFF, only WAV....
 

nonesup

Active Member
Feb 16, 2017
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Spain
Well, I encourage you to continue doing it. This server along with the Wadax, are on my radar in the medium term. Both would have the possibility to listen to them together in my dealer. The Innuos part with the huge advantage of its price over Wadax, but really at those prices the software must be almost perfect.
 

Blue58

Active Member
Jan 20, 2013
482
150
43
London, UK
Hi great description.
I agree with your point of view on the importance of noise in the network. I also give a lot of importance to try to decrease it, I use LPSU for both the router and the switch. It seems that we have come to the same conclusion; reducing the noise at the level of the router or switch improves the sound even though the transmission is from the server files directly to the DAC or Network Player.
I'm just going to give you a suggestion in case you want to try it, both my Switch AQvox and the Router are connected to Entreq boxes with Entreq cables with RJ45 connector. If you try it, you may find that the sound improves.
Just arrived, Paul Hynes SR4 power supply with a Ghent Audio ‘Gotham’ JSSG360 cable for duties on my router. Let’s hope it improves SQ, and TV pic if nothing else.
FDCBA31B-1475-420B-810D-FE2F8DE867CD.jpeg
 
Last edited:

Esotar

VIP/Donor
Mar 28, 2016
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www.digitusupremo.com
I just received SGM Extreme.

Zenith Statement vs SGM Extreme vs MP 64-64

I expect which music server is winner~!!! P1000344.JPG
 
Apr 28, 2015
63
4
8
There is NO advantage in an NOS DAC to mess with the data. On DSD it seems another way to negate the dreaded filter, but in changing the PCM stream to DSD created it's own noise, so gets rid of some of one problem, and creates another one....

It is not the PCM DAC v DSD to use DSP or not, it is PCM NOS DAC and PCM DS DAC.
The fact DS DACs upsample DUE to the negative effect of their digital filter. Pushing up the data into the higher bandwidth lets the DAC handle the brick wall filter better. But I found all DS DACs have an unnatural sound to them and dropped out of that group to concentrate on NOS DACs with old chip sets such as the AD1865 NK.

This subject has been discussed world-wide for the last 10 years+ and finally more folk are realising we were conned by the audio industry on the ever increasing oversampling thing. Funny, right back at my first DAC I ever bought, it probably sounded better than every other DS DAC I bought since then, until I got back to more modern takes on NOS DACs.
Astro: Point made. I’ve never been a believer in upscaling and, as you said, neither have others as evidenced in discussion forums. But I’ve heard some of the more recent efforts have improved results. Guess that’s wishful thinking. I’ll just stick with whatever is native.
popspin
 

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