A different philosophy.

[dallasjustice]

That was a false dichotomy, claiming designers who listen don't produce transparent gear. This is not only false, but imo it's possible for designers who listen to produce gear that's more transparent vs those who do not. For example, coupling capacitors... a Solen MKP might get the job done and measure the same as a Jupiter copper foil cap, but if you listen you'd realize the Jupiter cap is far more transparent. Some things you can't measure, or we don't understand how to interpret the measurements. Obviously those who disagree with that statement may disagree with what I'm saying, but audio design is both art and science in many ways, and it takes both to make the best gear. Those who do not listen are bound to make poor choices as a result and will never make the best gear.

I bet there's more great designers who don't care to listen. Peter Walker didn't listen before his gear went out. He had a lot of happy customers; one of the most successful designers in audio history.

 

[spazmatron]

I bet there's more great designers who don't care to listen. Peter Walker didn't listen before his gear went out. He had a lot of happy customers; one of the most successful designers in audio history.

Well he should of listened to the 606 amp, then he could of fixed its muddy bass

 

[DaveC]

I bet there's more great designers who don't care to listen. Peter Walker didn't listen before his gear went out. He had a lot of happy customers; one of the most successful designers in audio history.

One exception to prove the rule, Beethovens do exist... There are some that just have an innate intuitive grasp on things, a superior intellect or capacity for understanding certain subjects. If that's the case these people generally enjoy using their talent regardless, and having someone like this design audio equipment would be a blessing to us all.

It also depends what you're working on, stuff like cables (assuming one believes they make a difference) can't be designed without listening. Something like a DAC, at least before the output stage, maybe there's no benefit to listening at all? Amps, you might get to 90% good without bothering to listen, and that's good enough for high end audio Speakers... I can't imagine designing a speaker without listening to it!

 

[esldude]

Upon further reflection deleted as a waste of time.

 

[dallasjustice]

One exception to prove the rule, Beethovens do exist... There are some that just have an innate intuitive grasp on things, a superior intellect or capacity for understanding certain subjects. If that's the case these people generally enjoy using their talent regardless, and having someone like this design audio equipment would be a blessing to us all.

It also depends what you're working on, stuff like cables (assuming one believes they make a difference) can't be designed without listening. Something like a DAC, at least before the output stage, maybe there's no benefit to listening at all? Amps, you might get to 90% good without bothering to listen, and that's good enough for high end audio Speakers... I can't imagine designing a speaker without listening to it!

That's a good point about Beethoven. I had forgotten he wrote a number of great works while he was fully deaf.

 

[DaveyF]

I think the really interesting question is "does it matter?".
Without knowing who it is, clearly if he designs some of the most highly thought of gear on the market it doesn't matter.

So why all the teeth gnashing ?

No teeth gnashing. However, I was very surprised by this designer's philosophy and his statements about his enjoyment and appreciation of music...or rather lack thereof. Personally, I cannot see how anyone could be involved in the industry that he is in and not at least have some modicum of interest in music. Like Alex says above, would seem to be an oddity given how we look at and enjoy music and from the a'phile perspective. ( Well in my case, a'phile and musician). Anyhow, the complete disdain for music and complete lack of enjoyment for it makes me question how he could be involved ( and to a fairly great extent) in the work that he does--which is trying to bring to market a product that is able to reproduce the sound of 'live' music as adeptly as possible.
Dave C's responses make perfect sense to me, and I can see the enjoyment that he must get from being able to bring to the public a product that can increase our enjoyment of the very thing that we ourselves enjoy...music. The designer in question states emphatically that he does what he does in order to sell his electronics to the public as a business. No correlation for him between the designer and the enjoyment of music....
I think an analogy I would use is as follows.... a great violin player who actually hates all the music that he plays, yet he is able to play the instrument extremely well simply due to his prior violin teachers having been first rate and his ongoing practice. Makes his audience happy, and allows him to make a living playing violin....BUT he gets no enjoyment to personally listening to the music he creates, or that is all around him.....Too very strange indeed, IMHO.

 

[Whatmore]

The more interesting question to me at least, is that someone is able to make top notch gear in a way that audiophiles seem to think shouldn't be possible. Clearly the way we think it should be done isn't the only way.
It's certainly challenged my view and I think I've learnt something. (But it is really frustrating not knowing who it is )

 

[Folsom]

NO ONE said he doesn't have people listen for him, maybe to multiple designs; or he changes a few things based on what they say.

 

[DaveyF]

NO ONE said he doesn't have people listen for him, maybe to multiple designs; or he changes a few things based on what they say.

Like I stated, the designer did tell me that he has a "listening panel" that he employs...how he does this, I am unsure ( and like I also said, I did not get the impression that he puts much merit into this aspect). Plus, he also did state that he does take feedback from his customers, presumably after they have acquired the product and listened to them. I fail to see how one can modify the product from the SQ standpoint if you are not using a 'yardstick' for yourself in which to judge- and you do not listen to the product in the design stage(s). Nonetheless, he seems to produce gear that has a relatively loyal following and which is well thought of.
Whatmore somewhat summed up my feelings with his last post.

 

[Folsom]

There's a range. It's not perfect because clearly he'll never have a happy accident or anything of the sort. Without a doubt he has to ignore some comments because they aren't applicable to any known design aspect he's sure how to control. Also, he has to play within someone standardized rules to operate that way. I wouldn't expect anything totally off the wall.

 

[Maril555]

NO ONE said he doesn't have people listen for him, maybe to multiple designs; or he changes a few things based on what they say.

I think that was Ed Meitner