2.1 Desktop Audio System

[JackD201]

An external active crossover system has a flow like this

source ---- active crossover--------amplifiers--------individual drivers

It's basically what you would find in sound reinforcement applications except in your case, shrunk down.

The thing is with internal actives where the active XOs and the individual amps are all in one enclosure with the drivers is they don't have the flexibility you've said you want. You could put an active cross over ahead of your active monitors and use it as a high pass filter and send the other part to the sub and basically leave the sub's setting wide open. Like you said though, you'll now be paying for more stuff that you won't use e.g. your sub's crossover and 2 bands of your active unless you can find a two-way active. Rarer but they exist.

DEQX isn't actually geared towards home theater. It is really geared towards applications like this. Room Correction is just a part of what it does. It is actually more prized as a cross over and especially for its driver correction capabilities. It is also a pretty transparent pre-amp which includes a remote. Not cheap though. It can be configured in practically any way you can use the 6 outputs. 3 Stereo Pairs, 6 Mono Signals, etc. Basically it does everyting you've put on your wish list. The Bheringer units do the same except the driver correction part and owners have noted that there is a bit left to be desired in terms of sound quality. Alan Langford of DEQX is a good guy. I've got his contact info somewhere on this computer of mine. I can look for it for you if you want.

If all you want to do is shelf some frequencies off the active monitors and the subs. Perhaps some parametric EQs would do the trick for you. Your chain would look like this

source(DAC) -------preamp outputs 1 and 2----------parametric for monitors (bass cut)-----------monitor
preamp outputs 3 and 4----------parametric for subs (Highs and Mids cut)----subs

More cost effective solution I think but again lacking that fine "tweakage"

 

[jfw]

The thing is with internal actives where the active XOs and the individual amps are all in one enclosure with the drivers is they don't have the flexibility you've said you want. You could put an active cross over ahead of your active monitors and use it as a high pass filter and send the other part to the sub and basically leave the sub's setting wide open. Like you said though, you'll now be paying for more stuff that you won't use e.g. your sub's crossover and 2 bands of your active unless you can find a two-way active. Rarer but they exist.

I think there may be some confusion here. I intended to say I wanted a crossover to separate between the sub signal and (low + mid + high as one) for the active monitors. I'm fine with the active monitors crossover not being configurable and let it do whatever it does for the drivers in it's own enclosure. Just that the monitors / sub each get audio signals that consist of only frequencies they should output. I'm also fine with the sub's filter not being used (wasted) as this is pretty common when using sub in. Maybe what I need is a "high pass / leave the sub's setting wide open" instead of a crossover like you said? I don't think so, but maybe I'm missing something.

DEQX isn't actually geared towards home theater. It is really geared towards applications like this. Room Correction is just a part of what it does. It is actually more prized as a cross over and especially for its driver correction capabilities. It is also a pretty transparent pre-amp which includes a remote. Not cheap though. It can be configured in practically any way you can use the 6 outputs. 3 Stereo Pairs, 6 Mono Signals, etc. Basically it does everyting you've put on your wish list. The Bheringer units do the same except the driver correction part and owners have noted that there is a bit left to be desired in terms of sound quality. Alan Langford of DEQX is a good guy. I've got his contact info somewhere on this computer of mine. I can look for it for you if you want.

Thanks for the info, but this is a little outside of the price range for this system. If I were setting up a larger system, it will be something to consider.

If all you want to do is shelf some frequencies off the active monitors and the subs. Perhaps some parametric EQs would do the trick for you. Your chain would look like this

source(DAC) -------preamp outputs 1 and 2----------parametric for monitors (bass cut)-----------monitor
preamp outputs 3 and 4----------parametric for subs (Highs and Mids cut)----subs

More cost effective solution I think but again lacking that fine "tweakage"

Yeah, that's a quick and dirty solution. The problem with PEQ is it wouldn't cut out enough for me. I'd like a cleaner strict crossover solution. Also harder to control the slope with accuracy.

 

[jfw]

Upon further review it looks like the miniDSP with miniDIGI combo can do everything that I want. miniDIGI for S/PDIF TOSLINK / COAX in. miniDSP for crossover with computer based interface with high accuracy configuration and DIY adding of potentiometer for master volume control over all outputs.

For reference:

Crossover: http://www.hifizine.com/2010/09/subwoofer-equalization-and-integration-with-the-minidsp-2x4/

Volume Control: http://www.hifizine.com/2011/09/digital-direct-minidsp-stack/

Volume Control: http://www.minidsp.com/images/documents/miniDSP Balanced- User Manual v1.2.pdf

2.4.4 Master Volume Control
Master manual volume control of all output channels can be done with an external 10k linear
potentiometer instead of through the software. One or multiple miniDSP boards can be connected
to a single potentiometer for master volume control of multiple channels.

The only things that are missing are:

• A consumer / professional solution with rugged metal enclosure (for stacked combo not just miniDSP)
• Heavy duty connections (power / XLR).
• Higher sampling frequency.
• Higher quality DAC.

 

[JackD201]

• A consumer / professional solution with rugged metal enclosure (for stacked combo not just miniDSP)
• Heavy duty connections (power / XLR).
• Higher sampling frequency.
• Higher quality DAC.

That along with the budget kinda leads you back to the DCX2496. If the sound quality is questionable, there are quite a few modders out there that have gotten good feedback for their work on this unit.

 

[jfw]

That along with the budget kinda leads you back to the DCX2496.

For reference, it would be the setup used on page 25, 6.4 Stereo operation plus mono subwoofer:

http://www.behringer.com/assets/DCX2496_P0036_M_EN.pdf

Though the problem with this unit is "3 analog inputs (one suitable as digital stereo AES/EBU input)". I need a S/PDIF TOSLINK or COAX in. One alternative is to go from a DAC into this unit, but the downside of that is the DAC (digital to analog conversion) -> DCX2496 (analog to digital conversion) (DSP) (digital to analog conversion) -> out. I'd assume there would be lots of aliasing and rounding loss in this signal path two conversions more than necessary (ideally 1 conversion total, single DAC). Plus it doesn't seem to have volume control.

The cheapest sound card with AES output I can find is the "Lynx Studio Technology: AES16". Around $700, pretty expensive if the only reason to get it is for digital compatibility in for the DCX2496.

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2010/12/active-crossover-listening-tests.html
http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2010/12/active-crossover-listening-tests_05.html
http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2010/12/behinger-ultradrive-dcx-vs-minidsp.html

 

[JackD201]

Hmmmm. You're right.

How about using a SPDIF to AES3 converter from your PC to the DCX? They come in at less than a hundred bucks.

 

[mojave]

I would like to avoid all the extra inputs and recording focus of most audio interfaces just because I don't want to buy something I'll never use.

The Steinberg has been compared to be equal or better to the Benchmark or Lavry DACs. My view is why pay more for fewer features or for two channels that don't sound as good. It is nice to be able to connect a measuring microphone and use the phantom power on the Steinberg to do room measurements.

Another issue within using software DSP tied to a media player is what happens if your audio doesn't go through that media player. For example say you're listening to audio through your JRiver Media Center, you close that down then watch a youtube video? The flash audio doesn't get any of the DSP...

That is a very good point. JRiver has mentioned that they would like to develop a software audio driver so you can set that as your default audio device and all sound would be routed through the JRiver DSP. I don't care if YouTube stuff isn't in 2.1. It mostly sounds bad anyway. However, there are some music videos I like and sound good. I download them using saveyoutube.com and the playback in JRiver so I get bass management.

As far as 2.1 from what I've seen most PC audio hardware supports 2 / 5.1 / 7.1 etc... channels, I've never seen 2.1, so you'd have to run 5.1 minimum to get the sub signal. Making sure that the unused center / rears are not getting any special filtering taking away from the two stereo fronts.

You always have to use 5.1, but the other channels are just blank. There is no info in them no filtering on the stereo fronts.

That sounds like quite the desktop system you've got there, do you crank up the volume?

Only after work hours.

Though the problem with this unit is "3 analog inputs (one suitable as digital stereo AES/EBU input)". I need a S/PDIF TOSLINK or COAX in. One alternative is to go from a DAC into this unit, but the downside of that is the DAC (digital to analog conversion) -> DCX2496 (analog to digital conversion) (DSP) (digital to analog conversion) -> out. I'd assume there would be lots of aliasing and rounding loss in this signal path.

The cheapest sound card with AES output I can find is the "Lynx Studio Technology: AES16". Around $700, pretty expensive if the only reason to get it is for digital compatibility in for the DCX2496.

I used S/PDIF COAX into a DCX2496 for several years from my computer. All you need is an RCA male to XLR male cable and plug it in to input A on the DCX2496. I was actually using a 1/8" mini to XLR cable and using the S/PDIF output from my soundcard.

In my opinion, to go the DCX2496 route is to put emphasis on the ability to have 2.1 for all sources and move quality output down the list of what you are trying to achieve. The DCX2496 sounds worse than any of the internal soundcards I have owned. The internal soundcards have bass management included in their drivers so you can use them with 2.1 with any source. I also own a miniDSP and would recommend an internal soundcard over using it in you signal chain if sound quality is what you are after.

I've never tried this, but have thought about trying it just to see if it works. JRiver allows you to create zones and link them for playback so this should work. I've thought of getting two of the HRT Music Streamer II+ and using each as a zone. I could then send zone 1 to the mains and zone 2 to the sub(s). I could then use JRiver's parametric EQ to put a high pass on the mains and a low pass on the sub.

 

[jfw]

How about using a SPDIF to AES3 converter from your PC to the DCX? They come in at less than a hundred bucks.

Hmm, I had no idea such a thing existed. Interesting option though it still leaves me with having to add a preamp at the end for volume control. So the chain would consist of four components. (S/PDIF out) -> [S/PDIF to AES3 converter] -> [DCX2496] -> [preamp (2x one for strereo one for sub?)] -> (out to monitors / sub no synced volume control(?))

 

[jfw]

The Steinberg has been compared to be equal or better to the Benchmark or Lavry DACs. My view is why pay more for fewer features or for two channels that don't sound as good. It is nice to be able to connect a measuring microphone and use the phantom power on the Steinberg to do room measurements.

I see, so the MR816 could be used as DAC / preamp right? How would you change the volume? Use Firewire or S/PDIF in and out the front headphone jack? I see that they support DSP but can it do crossover and not just PEQ? Or would the crossover / volume control happen in the software on the PC? If this were the case the DAC on the MR816 wouldn't have much dynamic range left to convert if at low / moderate volumes and you'd loose resolution (I think). I think the volume control should be an analog process sometime after the DAC for highest quality (I think, not sure).

That is a very good point. JRiver has mentioned that they would like to develop a software audio driver so you can set that as your default audio device and all sound would be routed through the JRiver DSP. I don't care if YouTube stuff isn't in 2.1. It mostly sounds bad anyway. However, there are some music videos I like and sound good. I download them using saveyoutube.com and the playback in JRiver so I get bass management.

Yeah, the youtube was just an example of flash audio, maybe netflix is a better example. I also wouldn't be too concerned with audio quality for streamed media, what I am concerned about is if I'm feeding non filtered audio into my sub in half the time, might not be so good.

I used S/PDIF COAX into a DCX2496 for several years from my computer. All you need is an RCA male to XLR male cable and plug it in to input A on the DCX2496. I was actually using a 1/8" mini to XLR cable and using the S/PDIF output from my soundcard.

On this page:

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2010/12/behinger-ultradrive-dcx-vs-minidsp.html

They say "While it can accept SPDIF, the level needs attenuating which negates the advantages of having a digital input." which is another tick against the DCX2496.

 

[mojave]

I see, so the MR816 could be used as DAC / preamp right? How would you change the volume? Use Firewire or S/PDIF in and out the front headphone jack? I see that they support DSP but can it do crossover and not just PEQ?

Yes, I use it as a DAC. I control the volume with JRiver, but the Steinberg also has a master volume knob on the device which controls all output channels at once. For some pro devices, the master volume only works on 2 channels at a time. If you want to use 2.1, you have to use Firewire and do the bass management in software. It would only get a stereo signal with S/PDIF and it doesn't have its own crossovers, PEQ, or bass management. Again, I do all of this with my playback software. The DSP that is advertised with the Steinberg is only for use with Cubase software when mastering audio. I don't understand your comment about the front headphone jack.

Yeah, the youtube was just an example of flash audio, maybe netflix is a better example. I also wouldn't be too concerned with audio quality for streamed media, what I am concerned about is if I'm feeding non filtered audio into my sub in half the time, might not be so good.

If you use Netflix or Hulu to stream movies you are using DirectShow output. In this case your Windows settings determine how the audio is routed. For example, in Windows 7 you would set your audio device as a 5.1 device and then under "Customizing" you would check that you only have a subwoofer (no center or surrounds). If you set the mains to small then Windows 7 will use its own crossover and you will have a 2.1 system with filtered audio for Netflix or Hulu.

I should have clarified this earlier. With my system, output that uses JRiver bypasses the Windows Mixer and applies the JRiver DSP settings. Output that doesn't use JRiver (Netflix, Hulu, YouTube) uses the Windows mixer and should still be 2.1. However you have no control over the crossover and have to assume Windows 7 is doing it properly.

If you are going to watch Blu-ray, then you need a software player that will downmix from 5.1 or 7.1 to 2.1 since most Blu-rays don't have a stereo audio track.

On this page:

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2010/12/behinger-ultradrive-dcx-vs-minidsp.html

They say "While it can accept SPDIF, the level needs attenuating which negates the advantages of having a digital input." which is another tick against the DCX2496.

The DCX passes the same voltage in/out when using analog input. With SPDIF digital input, the output is too high for consumer devices. Therefore, you have to use something like the Harris Labs 12 dB attenuators. These are what were recommended to me by Phil Bamberg of Bamberg Audio.

 

[jfw]

Yes, I use it as a DAC. I control the volume with JRiver, but the Steinberg also has a master volume knob on the device which controls all output channels at once. For some pro devices, the master volume only works on 2 channels at a time. If you want to use 2.1, you have to use Firewire and do the bass management in software. It would only get a stereo signal with S/PDIF and it doesn't have its own crossovers, PEQ, or bass management. Again, I do all of this with my playback software. The DSP that is advertised with the Steinberg is only for use with Cubase software when mastering audio. I don't understand your comment about the front headphone jack.

I think I understand now, I edited my post to be a little more clear hopefully. It's basically a multi-channel DAC (firewire mode only) for stereo fronts and subs so you can do software crossover? Otherwise you'd have to do crossover after a stereo DAC (requires two preamps) or crossover after the preamp (requires one preamp). As in my edited post I think software volume control would substantially diminish audio quality. The viability of using this component would depend on if the master volume knob affected the audio before or after the DAC (basically if it's a digital or analog process).

If you use Netflix or Hulu to stream movies you are using DirectShow output. In this case your Windows settings determine how the audio is routed. For example, in Windows 7 you would set your audio device as a 5.1 device and then under "Customizing" you would check that you only have a subwoofer (no center or surrounds). If you set the mains to small then Windows 7 will use its own crossover and you will have a 2.1 system with filtered audio for Netflix or Hulu.

I should have clarified this earlier. With my system, output that uses JRiver bypasses the Windows Mixer and applies the JRiver DSP settings. Output that doesn't use JRiver (Netflix, Hulu, YouTube) uses the Windows mixer and should still be 2.1. However you have no control over the crossover and have to assume Windows 7 is doing it properly.

I see, that's another reason why I think I'd like to stay away from doing non-global software crossover. I've seen those Windows checkboxes, had a good chuckle... During day to day use remembering which software goes through which kind of processing on the way out etc... Makes the hardware solution more appealing since it's all outboard and will take effect one way all the time.

 

[jfw]

The DCX passes the same voltage in/out when using analog input. With SPDIF digital input, the output is too high for consumer devices. Therefore, you have to use something like the Harris Labs 12 dB attenuators. These are what were recommended to me by Phil Bamberg of Bamberg Audio.

I guess that really doesn't matter in this case since I wouldn't be using digital out. What they seem to be doing is mashing in S/PDIF and maybe the DCX2496 will accept it as AES3. You were putting the attenuators on the digital out of the DCX2496 right?

http://behringer-en.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/58/~/cd-player---s/pdif-to-digital-xlr

CD Player - S/PDIF to Digital XLR
Can I send a S/PDIF signal from a CD player to the digital XLR input on the DCX2496 / DEQ2496 ?

Yes - under most normal circumstances this will work. The two transmission standards are similar but not identical - you may find that under certain circumstances the AES/EBU input to the DCX2496 does not automatically recognise the SPDIF signal coming from the consumer device. This is due to the physical properties of the SPDIF transmission, and is not a defect in the DCX2496. The best solution to this situation is to use a universal format converter - eg our SRC2496. The DEQ2496 allows you to select the incoming format. However, if you do decide to use an adapter cable it is important to use a cable which is suitable for digital data transmission.

If I were looking at this solution I'd probably want to use a S/PDIF to AES3 converter.

 

[mojave]

I guess that really doesn't matter in this case since I wouldn't be using digital out. What they seem to be doing is mashing in S/PDIF and maybe the DCX2496 will accept it as AES3. You were putting the attenuators on the digital out of the DCX2496 right?

If I were looking at this solution I'd probably want to use a S/PDIF to AES3 converter.

The attenuators were for the analog output since the analog output when using digital input is too high of a level for consumer amps (or active subs like the Hsu subs I was using at the time).

 

[jfw]

FYI,

Here's the in development hypex DLCP "Digital Loudspeaker Correction Platform"

http://www.hypex.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=81&Itemid=93

which has a 96kHz sampling rate and built in IR receiver. So maybe some competition for the miniDSP soon. Hopefully we start to see more products like this.

Also with a 96kHz sampling rate (no digital in though) the Ground Sound DCN24:

http://www.groundsound.com/dcn24.php

 

[Thomas.Dennehy]

Not exactly desktop, but ...

Disclaimer: This post contains shameless product plugs. I work for Harman International and my wife works for HP.

That said, my 12' x 12' home office setup is as follows:

1. HP dv6t computer with Cakewalk UA-25 EX USB audio output device
2. TOSLINK to Harman Kardon HD 990 CD Player (explaination below)
3. Harman Kardon HK 3490 Receiver
3. Infinity TSS SAT-1100 bookshelf L/R speakers (actually on bookshelf)
4. Infinity Cascasde 12 subwoofer
5. Turntable and cassette deck for audio transfer work

Being on record saying the CD is obsolete, it is more than a little ironic that I turned to a CD player for my D-to-A. But the HD 990 has both a 24-bit/384KHz sample rate converter and an optical connector for an external digital source. And, being a Harman employee, it was delivered to me at well below retail. I have never played a CD on this unit.

TGD

 

[FrantzM]

Disclaimer: This post contains shameless product plugs. I work for Harman International and my wife works for HP.

That said, my 12' x 12' home office setup is as follows:

1. HP dv6t computer with Cakewalk UA-25 EX USB audio output device
2. TOSLINK to Harman Kardon HD 990 CD Player (explaination below)
3. Harman Kardon HK 3490 Receiver
3. Infinity TSS SAT-1100 bookshelf L/R speakers (actually on bookshelf)
4. Infinity Cascasde 12 subwoofer
5. Turntable and cassette deck for audio transfer work

Being on record saying the CD is obsolete, it is more than a little ironic that I turned to a CD player for my D-to-A. But the HD 990 has both a 24-bit/384KHz sample rate converter and an optical connector for an external digital source. And, being a Harman employee, it was delivered to me at well below retail. I have never played a CD on this unit.

TGD

I like your post .. I particularly like this line in your blog

LPs and CDs are Just Install Discs for Music

... I CONCUR !! Same here. I buy CD, no longer purchase LP, then rip them .. make sure I have the back up on another HDD/NAS and quickly put the jewel box away. I do miss the liner notes however and would like to have these in digital format... I haven't see any of these ... Possible but not (yet) widespread

 

[Vincent Kars]

I do miss the liner notes however and would like to have these in digital format... I haven't see any of these ... Possible but not (yet) widespread

As far as I know, there is no internet database with liner notes.
You have to scan them yourself.

 

[Thomas.Dennehy]

Most titles purchased from hdtracks come with a PDF of the liner notes. They're upfront about the exceptions that have cover art only.


TGD

 

[FrantzM]

As far as I know, there is no internet database with liner notes.
You have to scan them yourself.

Hi

I have done that for a few titles ... t ...e...d...i...o...u...s ... I quickly gave up ... I can understand the reluctance though ... With the liner notes in digital format piracy would have taken another level ..however bad it already is ...

 

[microstrip]

Most titles purchased from hdtracks come with a PDF of the liner notes. They're upfront about the exceptions that have cover art only.


TGD

Yes, they stay in the same folder as the music files. Do you know of way of reading them inside JRivers MC? I only manege to see the cover art image.