What is "Sound Stage?"

[microstrip]

Good thing that some people on this forum know everything so that those of us who don't can be set straight and put in our place.

Amen.

 

[JackD201]

Too bad there's no sound with this animation. We should have been able to hear the cane woosh up and down

 

[NorthStar]

Good thing that some people on this forum know everything so that those of us who don't can be set straight and put in our place.

I certainly fit into that category (the ones who don't).

* But it is from respectful discussions, and with open minds, that we all benefit in life.
...The ones who know, and the ones who don't.

"The best teachers are first and foremost great students.
And them great students always keep learning without ever knowing everything." -Bob

____________________

And what some people know, is not always communicated in the most gracious way ...
But then, not really, because world language is not yet developed well enough.
By that I mean we are susceptible as human beings to interpret not only music (sounds) but also words (writings) ...

 

[fas42]

Well, almost. I'll question its dependence on the quality of the system because given the descriptions we're getting here, it is obvious that much, if not most, of what is ending with their perceptions begins with the separation of frequencies in vertical driver arrays. That's either bad room set-up (big speakers too close) or bad driver coherence. So I guess one could make the argument that the effect is heavily dependent on the quality of the system. But not the high quality. Somehow I don't think that's what you were driving at.

Tim

It is the high quality that is the key ingredient: I can extremely easily drop the sound of my system back into the speakers, to satisfy the non-believers here, make it sound like they think a stereo should sound like, by removing some of the tweaking mod's. But for some strange reason I'm not that keen to do that ...

When a system is working well your ear/brain can't make the sound come out of the speaker drivers: at the moment I have on some driving, simply recorded, local band blues. At a normal listening position, standing up, the muso's are many feet above the speakers, and well behind. I can move around, the image remains at the same virtual space, doesn't suddenly skip to the speakers even if I try and "make" the sound go there.

Frank

 

[microstrip]

Too bad there's no sound with this animation. We should have been able to hear the cane woosh up and down

Except that people belonging to Animal Protection Agency or similar agencies would surely not be able to perceive it ...

 

[mep]

Too bad there's no sound with this animation. We should have been able to hear the cane woosh up and down

Jack-my thoughts exactly. Not only is this thread beating a dead horse, we are down to tooth, hair, and bone.

 

[Soundproof]

When there are no arguments left, I guess.

It's an amusing hobby.

 

[fas42]

Time to drag out the biggest cliche in this business: enjoy the music ......

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

Hey, the three channels! :b

* Audio, isn't it about perception and illusion?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but, while I'm sure I don't know everything, or even close to everything, I'm dead certain of this one. So just as an experiment, I've decided to keep coming back with reality and understanding, as long as someone here is still willing to post their fantasies and gross misunderstandings, not only as truth, but as the higher truth.

This one is so simple, so clear, I didn't think it had a chance of going on this long. See? I'm wrong again.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Very true, when someone can't resist insinuation in debates I really prefer it

 

[mep]

Tim-Earlier you told someone that your speakers float an image above the plane of your speakers. Can you explain how that is possible given that there is no height information in our recordings and therefore the image shouldn’t be any higher than the polar radiation pattern of your tweeters and that would only include sounds from the crossover point from your woofers to your tweeters?

 

[fas42]

This one is so simple, so clear, I didn't think it had a chance of going on this long. See? I'm wrong again.

Tim

If there is one thing that is not simple and clear, it is the mechanism of human hearing: I would like to hear the opinions of some people who are unfortunately deprived of vision, on what they hear with systems of different qualities ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It is the high quality that is the key ingredient: I can extremely easily drop the sound of my system back into the speakers, to satisfy the non-believers here, make it sound like they think a stereo should sound like, by removing some of the tweaking mod's. But for some strange reason I'm not that keen to do that ...

When a system is working well your ear/brain can't make the sound come out of the speaker drivers: at the moment I have on some driving, simply recorded, local band blues. At a normal listening position, standing up, the muso's are many feet above the speakers, and well behind. I can move around, the image remains at the same virtual space, doesn't suddenly skip to the speakers even if I try and "make" the sound go there.

Frank

I experience very solid, coherent phantom images between and around my speakers every time I listen to them, Frank. The disappearing speaker trick isn't lost on me, I live with it. And I tweak nothing. And, of course, all of that has nothing to do with the conversation in this thread.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but, while I'm sure I don't know everything, or even close to everything, I'm dead certain of this one. So just as an experiment, I've decided to keep coming back with reality and understanding, as long as someone here is still willing to post their fantasies and gross misunderstandings, not only as truth, but as the higher truth.

This one is so simple, so clear, I didn't think it had a chance of going on this long. See? I'm wrong again.

Tim

I'm a huge history buff. The two reasons for war

1. I want what you got

2. My truth is higher than yours

In that order although No.2 is usually just an excuse for No.1

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

If there is one thing that is not simple and clear, it is the mechanism of human hearing: I would like to hear the opinions of some people who are unfortunately deprived of vision, on what they hear with systems of different qualities ...

Frank

I've discussed the complexities of human hearing. Those complexities are why ears hear height information and send it to the brain. are a big part of the reason why the much simpler mechanisms of microphones cannot be expected to do the same. Height is not recorded. Height is not processed. Height is not played back, That's the part that is simple. The fact that people here manage to hear it anyway...yeah, that's pretty complex.

Tim

 

[treitz3]

Tim-Earlier you told someone that your speakers float an image above the plane of your speakers. Can you explain how that is possible given that there is no height information in our recordings and therefore the image shouldn’t be any higher than the polar radiation pattern of your tweeters and that would only include sounds from the crossover point from your woofers to your tweeters?

I'll question its dependence on the quality of the system because given the descriptions we're getting here, it is obvious that much, if not most, of what is ending with their perceptions begins with the separation of frequencies in vertical driver arrays. That's either bad room set-up (big speakers too close) or bad driver coherence. So I guess one could make the argument that the effect is heavily dependent on the quality of the system.

So am I to take it that we all have bad rooms and deficiencies within our rigs? The empirical evidence offered in this thread by many members, along with Tim's comments above would certainly suggest this.

 

[fas42]

And, of course, all of that has nothing to do with the conversation in this thread.

Tim

Tsk, tsk. It has everything to do with the conversation: the quality of soundstaging is a consequence of the quality of the playback system. Your system, because of its intrinsic construction (I've heard that that word before ...), is very high in quality in certain areas -- hence speakers disappear under certain conditions.

Now, high quality playback yields high quality soundstages. And certain high quality soundstages yield even further gains: a strong sense of height separation as one possibility; and speakers disappearing even more overtly as another. There is a continuum of experience with high quality sound: some will get some things "happening", others will not, but instead get other attributes of sound clearly resolved. But it is of little value to claim that because one personally doesn't achieve certain of these "behaviours" that others don't, or can't ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I'm a huge history buff. The two reasons for war

1. I want what you got

2. My truth is higher than yours

In that order although No.2 is usually just an excuse for No.1

I hear that. All I'm sticking to here is the simple truth, Jack. I've explained it to you. I don't doubt anyone's experience of perceiving height information, I'm merely asking them what that information is and how it got there, and debunking the obviously bogus answers. I'm going for the lower truth, here, man. The really basic stuff. My sig line applies in spades. It'll probably be over soon, given that it seems to be quickly devolving into snarky non-sequiturs.

Tim

 

[fas42]

I'm a huge history buff. The two reasons for war

1. I want what you got

2. My truth is higher than yours

In that order although No.2 is usually just an excuse for No.1

Jack, you forgot:

3. God (or the universe, take your pick) is on my side :b:b

Frank