Upcoming Nagra turntable

[PeterA]

I heard the Nagra Reference Turntable and Nagra Reference cartridge yesterday at my dealer. All I can say is WOW. Just pulls you into an incredibly beguiling presentation devoid of noise and such a rock solid foundation. I don't want to comment on the price.

I am seriously considering ordering the Nagra Reference Cartridge to go along with my Allaerts Formula 1 and Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement.

If you have the chance to listen to this table, It's well worth the time !!

John, thank you for sharing this impression. How does it sound different from your Monaco? People keep reporting improvements from vinyl replay. It's great to hear that things are still moving ahead. What does your dealer say is responsible for the beguiling presentation?

Could you take your Monaco to the dealer for a direct comparison between the two turntables? I would be fascinated by what you learn.

 

[jfrech]

John, thank you for sharing this impression. How does it sound different from your Monaco? People keep reporting improvements from vinyl replay. It's great to hear that things are still moving ahead. What does your dealer say is responsible for the beguiling presentation?

Could you take your Monaco to the dealer for a direct comparison between the two turntables? I would be fascinated by what you learn.

My dealer had a Monaco 2.0, same arm (Kuzma) and same cartridge (Goldfinger) as me. So this was a demo of that system vs the Nagra table/arm/cartridge.

First, I have always thought the Grand Prix had a speed stability, foundation, and a noiseless presentation that nothing else could beat. I listened for about 2 hours. About 1/2 on the Grand Prix system and half on the Nagra system then back a forth a few times at the end. The Nagra just draws you in in a way that the Grand Prix just couldn't. The Grand Prix is still very very good, but in comparison (to a 3x priced setup), it just was missing a few things. I especially noticed the differences on when listening to a symphony. Just the expansiveness and placement, the texture and timbre of each instrument, the dynamics.

I know Grand Prix has a 3.0 version of my table out, that I have not heard...I do plan to do a more detailed listening session again soon. The 2 hours flew by as I was surprised by what I was hearing.

(PS, my dealer was using Rockport Lyra's, Transparent cabling, Nagra Pre/Amps so other than the room similar systems)

 

[Jeffy]

I get to hear the Nagra table and full Nagra system at my friends Audio store every Saturday. David Michael Audio

 

[Solypsa]

Beautiful cart! Will be interesting @jfrech how much of what you liked so much with the full Nagra TT system the cart alone will give you

I see they are using cart pins that extend to the generator area like Aidas does!

 

[PeterA]

My dealer had a Monaco 2.0, same arm (Kuzma) and same cartridge (Goldfinger) as me. So this was a demo of that system vs the Nagra table/arm/cartridge.

First, I have always thought the Grand Prix had a speed stability, foundation, and a noiseless presentation that nothing else could beat. I listened for about 2 hours. About 1/2 on the Grand Prix system and half on the Nagra system then back a forth a few times at the end. The Nagra just draws you in in a way that the Grand Prix just couldn't. The Grand Prix is still very very good, but in comparison (to a 3x priced setup), it just was missing a few things. I especially noticed the differences on when listening to a symphony. Just the expansiveness and placement, the texture and timbre of each instrument, the dynamics.

I know Grand Prix has a 3.0 version of my table out, that I have not heard...I do plan to do a more detailed listening session again soon. The 2 hours flew by as I was surprised by what I was hearing.

(PS, my dealer was using Rockport Lyra's, Transparent cabling, Nagra Pre/Amps so other than the room similar systems)

Thanks John. That is the way to do a comparison. You are lucky to have such a dealer close by. I wonder how the new Nagra compares to the new SME Model 60. It seems vinyl is alive and well.

 

[jfrech]

Thanks John. That is the way to do a comparison. You are lucky to have such a dealer close by. I wonder how the new Nagra compares to the new SME Model 60. It seems vinyl is alive and well.

I was wondering that also ... re: Model 60

 

[tima]

I will be very interested to learn of comparisons between the new Nagra table and the new Monaco 3.0. You are fortunate to have a dealer where you can compare them.

 

[jfrech]

I

I will be very interested to learn of comparisons between the new Nagra table and the new Monaco 3.0. You are fortunate to have a dealer where you can compare them.

I went ahead and ordered the Monaco 3.0 motor controller for my Monaco 2.0. This will be an upgrade and I'll report back on the Grand Prix Monaco thread the differences I hear. I'll also be curious to hear it at my dealer on his Monaco 2.0 vs the Nagra table...

 

[tima]

I went ahead and ordered the Monaco 3.0 motor controller for my Monaco 2.0. This will be an upgrade and I'll report back on the Grand Prix Monaco thread the differences I hear. I'll also be curious to hear it at my dealer on his Monaco 2.0 vs the Nagra table...

This approach strikes me as very clever -- that the new controller can also work with the existing table. I don't know if any other direct-drive designers have built a modular table before.

 

[Solypsa]

This approach strikes me as very clever -- that the new controller can also work with the existing table. I don't know if any other direct-drive designers have built a modular table before.

Technics SP10mk3? Just being cheeky but that table does have the speed control electronics outboard in the external ps and the plinth separate

 

[XV-1]

Technics SP10mk3? Just being cheeky but that table does have the speed control electronics outboard in the external ps and the plinth separate

Technics SP10R also forms the basis of the AF1 slaying SAT turntable.

Seems pretty modular to me

 

[Zeotrope]

Technics SP10R also forms the basis of the AF1 slaying SAT turntable.

Seems pretty modular to me

Right. It does look like SAT didn’t modify the Technics motor controller at all - it’s exactly the same size chassis from the looks of it. Does anyone know if the power supply is modified for the SAT?

 

[Zeotrope]

Does anyone know what the difference is between the two Nagra Cartridges? One is 4 ohm and the other 6 ohm. Output is 0.3mV and 0.45mV, respectively. Are there any other differences?
I heard that one is made specifically for the Nagra Phono Stage; but I don’t understand why?

 

[jfrech]

Does anyone know what the difference is between the two Nagra Cartridges? One is 4 ohm and the other 6 ohm. Output is 0.3mV and 0.45mV, respectively. Are there any other differences?
I heard that one is made specifically for the Nagra Phono Stage; but I don’t understand why?

That is the only difference anyone has stated. Impedance and gain. The 4ohm will be more difficult to amplify, that's why they are saying the 4 ohm is a great match for the upcoming HD Phono, that has a higher gain than my Classic Phono. I have a 6 ohm on order. My dealer has one, I've heard it, it's a very very very nice cartridge.

I'll ask my dealer again if any more differences...I suspect the 4 ohm might sound different but no one has said that yet...

 

[Zeotrope]

That is the only difference anyone has stated. Impedance and gain. The 4ohm will be more difficult to amplify, that's why they are saying the 4 ohm is a great match for the upcoming HD Phono, that has a higher gain than my Classic Phono. I have a 6 ohm on order. My dealer has one, I've heard it, it's a very very very nice cartridge.

I'll ask my dealer again if any more differences...I suspect the 4 ohm might sound different but no one has said that yet...

Thanks, that's my understanding as well; but there isn't much out there about the cartridges other than the specs. My dealer suggested the 6ohm but only because he thought the 4ohm is "only" for the Nagra HD Phono stage. I think with my DarTZeel system and high efficiency horns, the 4ohm is probably better. Let me know what you think.

Using this calculator (if I did it correctly), the 0.3mV output (4 ohm) should have 58dB of phono stage gain. The 0.45mV output (6 ohm) should have 55dB of gain.
http://www.kabusa.com/pregain.htm

Now the DarTZeel 18NS preamp has fairly high gain. The lowest setting is 57dB, plus 11dB on the line stage. The DarTzeel 108 amp adds 26dB. So I think the 4ohm cartridge is probably the better match for this system. Any thoughts?

 

[jfrech]

Thanks, that's my understanding as well; but there isn't much out there about the cartridges other than the specs. My dealer suggested the 6ohm but only because he thought the 4ohm is "only" for the Nagra HD Phono stage. I think with my DarTZeel system and high efficiency horns, the 4ohm is probably better. Let me know what you think.

Using this calculator (if I did it correctly), the 0.3mV output (4 ohm) should have 58dB of phono stage gain. The 0.45mV output (6 ohm) should have 55dB of gain.
http://www.kabusa.com/pregain.htm

Now the DarTZeel 18NS preamp has fairly high gain. The lowest setting is 57dB, plus 11dB on the line stage. The DarTzeel 108 amp adds 26dB. So I think the 4ohm cartridge is probably the better match for this system. Any thoughts?

I found a little more info:

The Reference cartridge features a number of significant and unique elements. While traditional moving coil transducers utilize a single layer coil body, the Nagra Reference cartridge employs a multi-layer transducer featuring a double layer coil body wound with 20 hyper-pure silver windings in the 6 Ohm version and 12 hyper-pure windings in the 4 Ohm version. The double coil body results in a favorable reduction of impedance with a minimal reduction in output. The 6 Ohm Reference outputs 0.45mV@5cm/s. The 4 Ohm Reference achieves an output of 0.30mV@5cm/s.

https://www.nagraaudio.com/newsletter-september-2022/

Usually I would guess the less windings will change the sound...for the better if your phono stage is up to it.

 

[Zeotrope]

Thanks. Yes, indeed... all things equal (which they never are ), fewer windings will make it lighter and more 'responsive' -- but the phono stage needs to be up to it, as you say.
I am currently using a Kondo IO-M cartridge which outputs only 0.12mV.

 

[jfrech]

Thanks. Yes, indeed... all things equal (which they never are ), fewer windings will make it lighter and more 'responsive' -- but the phono stage needs to be up to it, as you say.
I am currently using a Kondo IO-M cartridge which outputs only 0.12mV.

My dealer thought the same re: fewer windings. Out of curiosity, where do you live? I'm in Austin, Tx.

 

[Zeotrope]

Funny how unlike OMA's K3, Nagra actually uses exotic new tech materials, such as EXIUM AM. OMA's "exotic" and genius material is cast iron Just couldn't help it!
But Weiss would point out that it's (dual) motor belt drive is garbage compared to direct drive -- utter non-sense, as belt drive has advantages over direct and there is no best solution.
Do the Air Force 1 and 0 tables also use dual motors?
I find the Nagra speed control implementation very unique and ingenious.

 

[Zeotrope]

Are there any other high end turntables with more than one motor?
Seems like multiple motors are a great way to increase torque without the drawbacks of a larger motor. And this is something you can’t do with direct drive.