Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Steve Williams]

notwithstanding the fact that this is an alpha version and many features that are inoperational have yet to be coded, I challenge everyone who has an Extreme with or without TAS to download the XDMS app and just listen to the music. Play anything you want from simple to complex, from soft and subdued to a full orchestral and you will hear it immediately. As I said you can't unring a bell. The sound is simply superb IMHO and that is what we are all after. There is no doubt in my mind that Ed and his team will bring the project across the finish line so let's cut them some slack. Once you have a listen I bet you will quickly become converts. I haven't gotten out of my listening room in the past 5 days, AND, according to Emile who has some tricks up his sleeve, XDMS willl be even better sonically in the months to come

 

[Steve Williams]

@Steve Williams

I will continue chipping away at your question. The reasonably comprehensible American English (for younger generations) below is a formative example of a musical P-State as it was depicted in my message you quoted last night. State of artistic expression at some point observed in Portland that leaked into musical naming conventions.

Graphically a rather simplified one if I'm perfectly honest about the state of digital creativity that will unavoidably be encountered going forwards. Your forum software fails to display this correctly when published (reasonable behavior for adult discussions). So I'm attaching a screenshot.


˜”?*°•.˜”*°• ??s?? ?? •°*”˜.•°*”˜ ?? ?

View attachment 97892

2015, this had dying relevance in 2015. Why would it still be years away from breaking into the conscious awareness of anyone designing a forward looking player program slated to be released in 2023? Correctly displaying characters encountered regardless of users native language or musical disposition is well within reasonable bounds of a GUI. If it exists it does not perform to the level of a high end audio app(liance).

I really don't have a clue what you're talking about. Are you speaking Valyrian

 

[oldmustang]

Hoping my new Extreme will ship with XDMS Alpha (as requested), I'm considering a tool to concatenate tracks in the library, temporarily resolving this for some must-have music (not saying this will work for everyone).

I'm wondering if there isn't something already out there that can remove track markers so that an album originally recorded without breaks can be "re-tracked" as one big track -- hence no gaps.

I'll have to take a look at what I have here -- I have some audio editing programs such as TEAC's Hi-Res Editor and KORG's AudioGate Studio that can insert track breaks. Maybe one of those or something similar can remove them, too.

Steve Z

 

[Steve Williams]

I'm wondering if there isn't something already out there that can remove track markers so that an album originally recorded without breaks can be "re-tracked" as one big track -- hence no gaps.

I'll have to take a look at what I have here -- I have some audio editing programs such as TEAC's Hi-Res Editor and KORG's AudioGate Studio that can insert track breaks. Maybe one of those or something similar can remove them, too.

Steve Z

They might have to hire you Steve, to help with the coding

 

[pleroma]

I'm wondering if there isn't something already out there that can remove track markers so that an album originally recorded without breaks can be "re-tracked" as one big track -- hence no gaps.

I'll have to take a look at what I have here -- I have some audio editing programs such as TEAC's Hi-Res Editor and KORG's AudioGate Studio that can insert track breaks. Maybe one of those or something similar can remove them, too.

Steve Z

I'm pretty sure it can be done with existing tools, on a case by case basis of course. I experimented with this years back when I had concerns with dsf track change pops, and we ripped the Hough/Litton Rachmaninov Paganini Variations into one big track. I'm looking into something for flacs too. Let's keep in touch on this. And again, it won't work for everyone (e.g. non local files).

 

[rando]

I really don't have a clue what you're talking about. Are you speaking Valyrian

It was worth a try even though your interests weren't about to be piqued. I respect that while seeing you as a viable entity to direct comments towards while the candle burns at both ends in NL.

I've no doubt a large contingent of readership here are well accustomed to seeing a string of ??? intermixed with ??? as a program chokes on languages only slightly older than binary. Or an established ornament universally understood.

Your D&D/sci-fi reference was less dated than I expected.

 

[dminches]

Any audio editing tool has the ability to bring in multiple tracks at once and combine them into 1 track. I do this all the time in Adobe Audition when I am editing music.

This isn’t a viable solution for those of us who have thousands of concert recordings.

 

[Steve Williams]

It was worth a try even though your interests weren't about to be piqued. I respect that while seeing you as a viable entity to direct comments towards while the candle burns at both ends in NL.

I've no doubt a large contingent of readership here are well accustomed to seeing a string of ??? intermixed with ??? as a program chokes on languages only slightly older than binary. Or an established ornament universally understood.

Your D&D/sci-fi reference was less dated than I expected.

Whatever

 

[rando]

Thank you for the reply, Steve.

I'll see no need to produce any further responses that intrude on your illustrations of XDMS Alpha.

I got a big

 

[oldmustang]

They might have to hire you Steve, to help with the coding

Thanks for the kind words, Steve but doing that would be like throwing them a large boat anchor. We're all hoping for a nice beta release sometime this year!

Steve Z

 

[oldmustang]

Any audio editing tool has the ability to bring in multiple tracks at once and combine them into 1 track. I do this all the time in Adobe Audition when I am editing music.

This isn’t a viable solution for those of us who have thousands of concert recordings.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I'm not familiar with Adobe Audition but I'll definitely take a look at it.

I agree it isn't a long-term solution for those who have thousands of concert recordings -- I have well over a thousand Grateful Dead concerts myself. But @pleroma offered it as a stopgap way to play some essential recordings while waiting for the Taiko team to crack the very difficult gapless nut.

Steve Z

 

[microstrip]

(...) I challenge everyone who has an Extreme with or without TAS to download the XDMS app and just listen to the music. (...)

Sorry Steve, how can we download the XDMS app?

 

[Steve Williams]

Thank you for the reply, Steve.

I'll see no need to produce any further responses that intrude on your illustrations of XDMS Alpha.

I’d really like to answer you but I honestly am not getting your point.

 

[Steve Williams]

Sorry Steve, how can we download the XDMS app?

You need a Test Flight invite which you redeem. Having done that you then need Ed et al to activate everything

 

[pleroma]

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I'm not familiar with Adobe Audition but I'll definitely take a look at it.

I agree it isn't a long-term solution for those who have thousands of concert recordings -- I have well over a thousand Grateful Dead concerts myself. But @pleroma offered it as a stopgap way to play some essential recordings while waiting for the Taiko team to crack the very difficult gapless nut.

Steve Z

Thanks Steve. I was thinking of the example above, a collection of variations, each track less than a few minutes, where any kind of gap would make playback completely pointless. I put this on the music production organization as much if not more, because I never cared to have a ton of tracks for music which needs to be played together. Other examples, like symphony or concerto movements written to segue, opera tracks, or concerts of any genre with live ambience would still need gapless, but not so much as shorter music, IMO.

 

[ctydwn]

Oh XDMS! Ed did his magic today, no doubt 'Extreme'ly late his time. Thank you Ed and nice to meet you virtually!
Have just an hour of listening under my belt, but it is CLEAR how their efforts are paying off. All the SQ descriptions above resonate, in particular, lower noise floor, tonal density, the engagement factor and wow the decay duration. This is particularly clear from the tracks running direct from the Extreme. Additionally, streaming 16/44 off Qobuz sounds BETTER than streaming the same songs HiRes on TAS on most tracks, similar on a smaller set. (Why am I making that apples to oranges comp? For some reason, my alpha version is not pulling up the hi-res versions from Qobuz yet. Taiko team already on it and they know where to look to fix).

And frankly, the looks and functionality for me already surpass TAS which I had been pleased with. (Tidal working again and favoriting functions fully operational). Any additional functionality or room furnishings, and of course SQ improvements, will be gravy for me. Thanks again to the Taiko team that we all engage with here and special thanks to the tireless coders/tech folks working so hard behind the scenes as well.

 

[Lojay]

I'm very grateful to Ed who installed XDMS on my Extreme and helped fix a few bugs or issues that arose after the installation. Here are my quick impressions.

UI/UX

While the app is still in Alpha, the app installed on my iPad is well snappier and more responsive than TAS. TAS has more frustrating glitches or nits than XDMS currently has - the most annoying one being TAS's tendency to throw one back to the main menu after browsing 3-4 levels deep into a folder structure/Qobuz. XDMS also looks amazing on my iPad - it has a clean, modern and classy look. In terms of usability, it fits well with how I navigate music - the ability to browse folders already elevates the usability of XDMS beyond Roon. If it has an easy way to read longer file names (e.g. a scrolling function) that would be even better.

SQ

Going from TAS to XDMS is akin to going to 4k video from HD 1080p - the jump from 360p to HD was a much greater jump, but with 4k you are seeing a lot more information nonetheless. The jump in terms of resolution and musical information (and for equal measure, the lowering of the noise floor) is significant with XDMS - this is coming from an already very detailed digital system (PGGB upsampled files fed into a Chord DAVE). The increase in resolution is most evident in orchestral tracks, XDMS reveals musically relevant details that are masked on TAS. One of my favourite tracks is Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody on Stowkoski's Rhapsody (HDTT, upsampled). With XDMS, among the massed strings, I could easily hear the detailed texture and resonance of the cellos and double basses which were not previously evident. On Anermet's The Royal Ballet (HDTT, upsampled), one is taken one step further to a live performance. Previously with TAS there was a lack of sense of depth of the venue and instruments. This is much improved with XDMS. Overall the noise floor is lowered, transient response is noticeably cleaner and consequently there is more "pop" to each instrument. This is the closest to a live performance that I got from the recording. Although it is a Kenneth Wilkinson classic, when played through TAS, one is occasionally reminded that this is is a 60 year-old recording - not so when the album is played through XDMS.

Another good example of XDMS's ability to retrieve musically relevant detail is the first track in the Cantate Domino album from the label Proprius (upsampled from 24/88.2). For perhaps the first time I could clearly hear what each singer was singing, whether in harmony or unison, etc. It was impressive. On the other hand, the improvement in resolution was less evident in cleaner, modern classical recordings such as Anne Akiko Meyer's Air: The Bach Album, perhaps because the recording has a lower noise floor. I have yet to try any well recorded modern orchestral recordings; this is on my to-do list, subject to the issue I address in the following section.

I suspect that those who listen to less complicated tunes, e.g. solo instruments or voices, girl with a guitar, may feel that the uplift in sound quality is less evident. Nevertheless, I felt that the solo piano on Nojima Plays Liszt had a noticeable uplift in realism and I-am-there-ness, with the improved clarity of transients and lowering of noise floor. Previously on TAS I was rather annoyed by the typical Reference Recordings veil which was also apparent on this recording, this is now diminished to a more than listenable state. I also played some pop music and feel there is a tad more detail and body in voices than before, but previously with TAS/Roon on the Extreme one already had detail in spades (one could easily hear the smacking of lips, the opening of mouths etc). On complex pop tracks there is a marked improvement in instrumental and vocal separation. My wife is a fan of a Hong Kong 12-member boy band (which shall not be named in this sacred place!) and on upsampled tracks one can follow each singer more clearly, as well as the instrumentation.

Roy (Romaz) mentioned that TAS was a tad dry and Roon sounded bloated and smeared. I completely agree. XDMS is somewhere between the two in terms of body and richness, but in my view closer to the TAS end of the spectrum (i.e. "clean" as opposed to "full"). For those who crave ultimate lushness XDMS is probably not the right direction, but then one has the option of Roon if that were what one desires. However, I do think that XDMS sounds more "organic" and less "digital" than TAS, particularly in the way it resolves transients and decay. Instruments and voices sound more tangible with XDMS (if one can exchange that word with "body") but without the bloat. This is very much welcome no matter which end of the spectrum of tonality one prefers.

Overall, the improvements to the sound quality are immediately apparent. My wife, who is not an audiophile, noticed the uplift in sound quality even sitting in the dining room adjacent to my listening room.

Classical music woes

As someone almost exclusively listens to PGGB upsampled classical music, the number one feature I would like to see on XDMS (no - not gapless play) is the ability to play lengthy 705 kHz / 768 kHz upsampled files without issue. Currently, longer upsampled tracks (~8 minutes or more) can be played on XDMS but playback may abruptly stop mid-way. Some files longer than 10 minutes cannot be played at all. Ed mentioned that the RAM size of 4092 MB on the RAM Disk may not be sufficient to play longer PGGB upsampled tracks and suggested that I try increasing the RAM to 8192 MB.

Update: As suggested by Ed, I increased the RAM Disk (Z drive) size to 8192 MB. With a reboot I managed to play some upsampled files I could not play before at all. I will need to test with longer tracks. Some 16.5 minute PGGB upsampled tracks (the largest possible size of 4.21 GB per track) remain completely unplayable at all while others would come to an abrupt halt just short of 6 minutes of playback.

 

[alwayslearning]

As another Extreme user who plays a lot of PGGB files at 705/768, including quite a few longer tracks (and definitely not limited to classical music), the issue of music stopping abruptly would be a pretty huge concern. I'm sure Taiko is aware of this and already working to remedy the situation.

 

[austinpop]

As someone almost exclusively listens to PGGB upsampled classical music, the number one feature I would like to see on XDMS (no - not gapless play) is the ability to play 705 kHz / 768 kHz upsampled files without issue. Currently, longer upsampled tracks (~8 minutes or more) can be played on XDMS but playback will abruptly stop mid-way. Ed mentioned that the RAM size of 4092 MB on the RAM Disk may not be sufficient to play longer PGGB upsampled tracks and suggested that I try increasing the RAM to 8192 MB, but on my initial attempt nothing could be played at all after increasing the RAM on RAM Disk. I do hope this can be resolved soon.

Excellent report!

The music abruptly stopping mid-track for large PGGB files is something that has existed since TAS. Unfortunately there is no easy fix that I know of.

 

[nenon]

Ed also got me up and running with XDMS today. Thank you, @EuroDriver!

Not much to add after all these excellent reports. Sound quality is a big step up from TAS and Roon. Much better clarity is the first thing I heard. Several curtains have been lifted between me and the musicians. Everything sounds more real and natural. Instruments are much more believable and a big step closer to a life performance in my room. Hard to reproduce instruments like piano or drums sound more real than ever.

@onlychild asked me if the sound quality delta from TAS to XDMS is bigger than the delta from Roon to TAS. That was a very good question, and so I spent some time switching between Roon, TAS, and XDMS. The answer for me is definitely YES. I hear bigger improvement from TAS to XDMS than Roon to TAS.

Functionality is still work in progress. If I was asked to pick one "quick" change, it will be to sort Qobuz Favorites by "Added Date" showing the most recently added albums first (instead of sorting by album name).