A Superior / Musical Bass: Does it exist? If so, is it free? How do we recognize it? How do we achieve it?

[hi5harry]

I recently had a sort of epiphany as far as what sounds like real bass. I built up a pair of JBL 18" transmission line subs for another project. I brought them into my main system just to tune them. What I heard was a very familiar bottom end. If you are like me, you probably grew up listening to amplified/ equalized JBL woofers at most concerts. I know it's not the same sound as playing a stand up bass in a small room, but it did mimic venue bass way better than my system did before. I had plenty of bass support before, but that old JBL woofer bass sure makes most of my music sound a lot more like a live concert. I guess that's something my ears/brain believe is " real bass" also.

 

[stehno]

Considering their authors, some of these more recent posts above don’t surprise me in the least. One poster even attempted to repurpose the intended meaning of my thread. How odd. There’s the usual seemingly growing list of thread derailers who as usual just seem lost. But what is regrettable is the post implying my having a mental disorder (OCD). I’m curious how one can be so crass, rude, and downright insensitive as to label me and potentially others with a mental disorder. I’m even more curious that he’s not alone as others gave the big thumbs up acknowledging their approval of such rudeness. Especially if the accusation were true. I’m reminded of the adage, “We don’t become wiser with age, rather we just become more foolish in our ways.”

Of course some responses beg the question, if performance ain’t your thang, then why are you even reading this thread, much less posting about how content of a system builder / music lover you claim and as usual provide zero detail? In case nobody’s noticed, in this audio-only industry the days of taking anybody’s word for anything are over. For me anyway as it’s all too easy to get at least some glimpse what one is actually hearing by a simple in-room recording. Many refuse to take advantage of this opportunity to advance the industry.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but are we not participating in a high-end audio industry and in a forum entitled WhatsBestForum.com? Shouldn’t those titles alone imply performance over the status quo or is it just lip service for yet another social audio network where members encourage each other to personally attack various performance-minded types? Shouldn’t the performance-minded types be rather obvious when we routinely observe some here always trying some new tweak or product, others on a perpetual buy/sell merry-go-round, and/or others spending upwards of hundreds of thousands of dollars striving to improve their playback presentation?

I’ve no problem with those claiming to be content with wherever they may be in their journey, errr, ummmmm, I mean their destination (though I have my suspicions why they don’t engage). Even so, why can’t they be equally respecting of those striving to improve? I’m most curious as to what could possibly be their motivation for speaking negatively even alleging mental disorders at those striving to improve over and above the status quo and in a thread clearly intended to be solely about performance? Whatever the cause / motivation, it can’t be pretty. Oh that’s right, we become wiser with age.

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Anyway, back on topic. To recap for those interested in a superior / musical bass. As demonstrated in the 6-8 in-room recordings I’ve provided, it does exist, it is achievable, and it is free. In fact, based on some-to-many of the comments in this and other threads and a lack of any real evidence to support the contrary (other than mere words), it seems clear many aren’t even aware of its existence. Moreover, since I’ve yet to experience it elsewhere, I’d venture the probabilities are rather high that acoustically coupling a speaker to its room may be the only reasonable means to achieve a superior / musical bass.

To reiterate. When acoustically coupling speakers to the room to create a superior / musical bass:

- It’s free. Provided one already has sufficient hardware.

- The entire playback presentation becomes incredibly more musical. Not just the bass regions but everything across the frequency spectrum – or so it seems.

- It becomes rather obvious that there exists an acoustic noise floor where bass info processed below the acoustic noise floor threshold remains inaudible at the speaker (a cancelling?) and vice versa for bass info processed above the acoustic noise floor threshold.

- All perceived bass across the entire bass spectrum is transformed once on the other side of the fence including characteristics like speed/quickness and regardless of genre. IOW, all pros and not a single con. To me, that speaks volumes about this method.

- It’s less complex and easier to achieve when acoustically coupling speakers only (no subwoofer) to the room.

- As hopefully my videos substantiate that getting the bass right just might get you halfway toward your desired goal toward a truly musical playback presentation.

- There seemingly exists a pitcher’s mound placement position for I presume every speaker to its associated room. What the radius around the center of the pitcher’s mound location is, I’ve no clue but I’m guessing its rather small – like maybe a couple of inches.

- Should require no acoustic treatments nor bass traps, nor a custom room, nor a consultant. Just a reasonable-enough room big enough to allow the speakers to breathe a bit and some-to-much perseverance.

With these additional in-room recordings I’ve now covered most of the popular music genres and in every video provided there ought not be a single instance of a bass deficiency anywhere within the hardware’s limitations. Is it the absolute best bass? Of course not. But it most definitely is somewhere on the superior / musical side of the bass fence which that fact alone makes it, well, er, ummmm, more superior and musical than most.

As always, others are most welcome to substantiate their position on the subject by submitting an in-room recording. Those seemingly content with things just as they are, by all means step to the front of the line and submit an in-room video demonstrating the quality of bass that satisfies you. But I ain’t holdin’ my breath.

BTW, I can’t help but wonder if the fact that this bass is 100% free is what makes it so difficult to grasp? Just remember that some subwoofer mfg'ers and enthusiasts cannot stress enough about the importance of subwoofer placement for best bass. And a subwoofer is but a speaker. So really, there should be nothing new here.

 

[Lagonda]

As you say, "there should be absolutely nothing new here". Most of us have painstakingly positioned our speaker where they are coupled best to the room. You imply that audiophile in general just plop their speakers out of the box and leave them where they land Jim Smith has written a excellent book where he has spent several chapters on organizing a methodology on speaker placement in a given room, grid marking it with tape is one of his tricks. Peter had Jim Smiths help setting up his room initially. I personally spent years on getting it right, and room placement of main speakers is just first step in the process. Driver compatibility, surface coupling, flooring type, wall and corner treatment if the room requires it, sub/main amplifier compatibility and crossover type and adjustability are thing i have taken into consideration. Don't be so sensitive about the OCD remark, one mans OCD is another mans, getting it right ! i I take pride in my audio OCD, and it does not get in the way of music enjoyment

I think you overvalued videos taken in your untreated room recorded at 100db, they will always have the limitations of the system playing them back. Do you honestly think your system is capable of representing, especially in the bass, what is happening in Mike L.'s large custom built room with 1 million dollars worth of equipment assembled painstakingly for compatibility, over a 20 year period of time ?

 

[stehno]

As you say, "there should be absolutely nothing new here". Most of us have painstakingly positioned our speaker where they are coupled best to the room.

What is with some of you? In other threads when the topic of a superior type of bass is mentioned, most go silent. But since I've opened this thread, MANY now claim to have it? Go figure.

Let's think about this. Now you didn't, but let's think about this. If many have a superior / musical bass, then it really ain't so superior / musical now, is it? When many have anything, It's called the norm or average. And I suspect this is exactly what you're really thinking here. But because you followed the magic grid and moved your speakers around a bit and noticed a little improvemnet, you think you're there and you assume that's what I'm talking about. Not even close.

Most of us? Are you the official mascot now for high-end audio presenting its case against the free advice I offered? Got any evidence to support this claim of "most of us"? If not, I'm guessing the "most of us" is imaginary and this topic is new to you.

You imply that audiophile in general just plop their speakers out of the box and leave them where they land

For many, I'd venture your comment isn't too far off the mark. But then I happen to think high-end audio's greatest deficiency is many of its participants lack even basic listening skills. If that is true, then speaker placement shouldn't really matter to many now would it? If many lacked the ability to discern what to listen for, they'd never find it. Thereby confirming again my suspicion that you lack understanding or experience.

Jim Smith has written a excellent book where he has spent several chapters on organizing a methodology on speaker placement in a given room, grid marking it with tape is one of his tricks. Peter had Jim Smiths help setting up his room initially.

And? I've listened to a few of Peter's in-room videos and I think his videos serve him well as he's obviously made great strides in recent years. But I don't recall anything special about the bass regions nor his emphasizing even once achieving a type of superior / musical bass that dramatically sets his bass and music presentation apart from others. Then again, according to you MANY have gone the painstaking route of positioning speakers and already have a superior / musical bass. We still can't hear it at shows or showrooms or most anywhere else but according to you most everybody else has it?

Maybe I missed that post, but I'm guessing if Peter had experienced it, he'd probably be sharing that experience occasionally, at least perhaps in this thread. IOW, it's overwhelming and undeniable when it occurs as it's most likely the greatest single improvement somebody like you could ever experience in playback audio. In fact, I'm still amazed how you and so many others have kept this light hidden under a bushel for so long - at least until I opened this thread.

Did Jim Smith do an excellent job at Peter's? Or does it really only matter that Jim was there because you read his excellent book and since that's where your hope, faith, and trust rests, that's good enough for you?

Obviously, you purchased Jim's book. Does Jim mention in his book anything about a superior / musical type of bass or the dramatic transformation thereof? What page and paragraph?

Do you know first- or secondhand that Peter now has a truly superior / musical bass?

Peter is certainly capable of producing a nice in-room video that could demonstrate the superior bass Jim provided him. But what might it say about you and your faith if per chance Peter still does not have what is considered a superior / musical bass that sets itself apart from others, but instead just has a nice pleasant run-of-the-mill bass that's maybe just a tad more musical than his buddies?

Or do you think just because somebody / anybody writes a book and offers consulting services they must be an expert? If this is your line of thinking, then perhaps you should read "The Audio Expert". I've not read it but it just might be right up your alley.

I personally spent years on getting it right, and room placement of main speakers is just first step in the process.

Really? Why not share your experience of "getting it right", how you did it, what's different, etc. Of course, an in-room video of any kind, even mono, would really help substantiate your words.

But as with your other text, I'm a bit confused here also. If MANY of us have a truly superior / musical bass by painstakingly positioning our speakers and/or bought Jim's book (implying some have not) and since you claim you "got it right", then why are you not supporting my effort here to help ensure others are aware of its existence and that it's entirely free? Or are you just upset because maybe you really don't have the superior bass you thought?

Driver compatibility, surface coupling, flooring type, wall and corner treatment if the room requires it, sub/main amplifier compatibility and crossover type and adjustability are thing i have taken into consideration.

Good for you.

Perhaps Peter is willing to provide an in-room recordng demonstrating a superior / musical type of bass that Jim delivered. If not, why not ask Jim for an in-room recording video of one of his client's rooms that you could post here demonstrating the superior / musical type of bass you're thinking of? Shouldn't be too difficult, right? I'm sure Jim would be happy to oblige since it's an excellent marketing opportunity for both you and Jim.

Don't be so sensitive about the OCD remark, one mans OCD is another mans, getting it right ! i I take pride in my audio OCD, and it does not get in the way of music enjoyment

Thanks, mommy. But taking into consideration all the potential deficiencies here, I really don't give a rat's behind even if the allegation was true. Nevertheless, such deragatory ad hominem comments say more about the person making them and those like you that condone and partake in such behavior. Given your comments, did my adage about wisdom vs foolish go over your head?

I think you overvalued videos taken in your untreated room recorded at 100db.

Videos ain't the tell-all for sure but as stated elsewhere but they can certainly give a good indication what a system is or isn't. And an in-room recording certainly tells anyone with even the most basic listening skills more about what you think you're heariing than your mere words.

My room has carpeting/pad and some minimal furishings so I'd hardly call it an untreated room. But it does not include any purchased acoustic treatments if that's what you mean. Does Jim say it's a requirement?

Oh, and the 100+ db is significant. One is to ensure a fraction of the gestat makes it to the recording. Two is most systems are simply intolerable near or at these listening levels. By all means, crank up some Van Halen just to confirm.

What's funny is you make this horror face because you cannot comprehend what's going on. What you cannot comprehend is, I don't need acoustic treatments like you do and I play my music upwards of 100+ db because I can and it's frickin' enjoyable as all git out. What you fail to comprehend is you and MANY others cannot do these things.

, they will always have the limitations of the system playing them back.

We agree on something. Last time I checked, limitations are everywhere and infinite. But was there a point to stating the obvious?

Do you honestly think your system is capable of representing, especially in the bass, what is happening in Mike L.'s large custom built room with 1 million dollars worth of equipment assembled painstakingly for compatibility, over a 20 year period of time ?

Well, Mike's system is quite a ways up the food chain. I was kinda' hoping to start off with a much easier system like perhaps yours. But I suppose that wouldn't be a good use of our time. Good thinkiing on your part.

Without blinking an eye, I absolutely would choose mine. I mean that is the response you were dying to hear, right?

Mike seemingly is quite fastidious performing due diligence when required, etc. As near as I can tell, he gets it and he has a tremendous passion for high-end audio. I only wish others approached high-end audio with his passion. Hint, hint.

IOW, Mike is no slouch and I'd venture his system isn't either. Unlike you, Mike comprehends much about this industry. But he did say in this thread that a superior / musical bass does exist but it's not free and one had to pay the piper and I've no clue what he meant by that. Near as I can tell, Mike (and others), put great reliance on status quo items like acoustic treatments, custom rooms, traditional forms of vibration mgmt, etc for which I've no use. Mike's system has most of the near best of everything whereas my podunk system has almost nothing. Clearly our wallets and strategies toward building an extremely well-thought-out system are perhaps polar opposite in most cases.

Given that and having never actually heard Mike's system (I never presume performance with my eyes) and given what I've accomplished with my system, if I were to enter some winner-take-all type of competition with all the marbles at stake, I'd have to opt to enter my own over Mike's.

Is that ample enough fodder for ya' big guy?

 

[Mikem53]

What is with some of you? In other threads when the topic of a superior type of bass is mentioned, most go silent. But since I've opened this thread, MANY now claim to have it? Go figure.

Let's think about this. Now you didn't, but let's think about this. If many have a superior / musical bass, then it really ain't so superior / musical now, is it? When many have anything, It's called the norm or average. And I suspect this is exactly what you're really thinking here. But because you followed the magic grid and moved your speakers around a bit and noticed a little improvemnet, you think you're there and you assume that's what I'm talking about. Not even close.

Most of us? Are you the official mascot now for high-end audio presenting its case against the free advice I offered? Got any evidence to support this claim of "most of us"? If not, I'm guessing the "most of us" is imaginary and this topic is new to you.


For many, I'd venture your comment isn't too far off the mark. But then I happen to think high-end audio's greatest deficiency is many of its participants lack even basic listening skills. If that is true, then speaker placement shouldn't really matter to many now would it? If many lacked the ability to discern what to listen for, they'd never find it. Thereby confirming again my suspicion that you lack understanding or experience.

Wow... You sure dont think much of others abilities or experiences When it comes to audio.
Sitting atop that high horse and looking down upon others isn’t convincing anybody of your self proclaimed expertise.
Glad you got it all figured out ! I’m sure many others on here do as well.. At least enough to enjoy their systems without putting everyone else down in the process.
Enjoy your system! just as others are enjoying theirs..

 

[Lagonda]

What is with some of you? In other threads when the topic of a superior type of bass is mentioned, most go silent. But since I've opened this thread, MANY now claim to have it? Go figure.

Let's think about this. Now you didn't, but let's think about this. If many have a superior / musical bass, then it really ain't so superior / musical now, is it? When many have anything, It's called the norm or average. And I suspect this is exactly what you're really thinking here. But because you followed the magic grid and moved your speakers around a bit and noticed a little improvemnet, you think you're there and you assume that's what I'm talking about. Not even close.

Most of us? Are you the official mascot now for high-end audio presenting its case against the free advice I offered? Got any evidence to support this claim of "most of us"? If not, I'm guessing the "most of us" is imaginary and this topic is new to you.


For many, I'd venture your comment isn't too far off the mark. But then I happen to think high-end audio's greatest deficiency is many of its participants lack even basic listening skills. If that is true, then speaker placement shouldn't really matter to many now would it? If many lacked the ability to discern what to listen for, they'd never find it. Thereby confirming again my suspicion that you lack understanding or experience.


And? I've listened to a few of Peter's in-room videos and I think his videos serve him well as he's obviously made great strides in recent years. But I don't recall anything special about the bass regions nor his emphasizing even once achieving a type of superior / musical bass that dramatically sets his bass and music presentation apart from others. Then again, according to you MANY have gone the painstaking route of positioning speakers and already have a superior / musical bass. We still can't hear it at shows or showrooms or most anywhere else but according to you most everybody else has it?

Maybe I missed that post, but I'm guessing if Peter had experienced it, he'd probably be sharing that experience occasionally, at least perhaps in this thread. IOW, it's overwhelming and undeniable when it occurs as it's most likely the greatest single improvement somebody like you could ever experience in playback audio. In fact, I'm still amazed how you and so many others have kept this light hidden under a bushel for so long - at least until I opened this thread.

Did Jim Smith do an excellent job at Peter's? Or does it really only matter that Jim was there because you read his excellent book and since that's where your hope, faith, and trust rests, that's good enough for you?

Obviously, you purchased Jim's book. Does Jim mention in his book anything about a superior / musical type of bass or the dramatic transformation thereof? What page and paragraph?

Do you know first- or secondhand that Peter now has a truly superior / musical bass?

Peter is certainly capable of producing a nice in-room video that could demonstrate the superior bass Jim provided him. But what might it say about you and your faith if per chance Peter still does not have what is considered a superior / musical bass that sets itself apart from others, but instead just has a nice pleasant run-of-the-mill bass that's maybe just a tad more musical than his buddies?

Or do you think just because somebody / anybody writes a book and offers consulting services they must be an expert? If this is your line of thinking, then perhaps you should read "The Audio Expert". I've not read it but it just might be right up your alley.


Really? Why not share your experience of "getting it right", how you did it, what's different, etc. Of course, an in-room video of any kind, even mono, would really help substantiate your words.

But as with your other text, I'm a bit confused here also. If MANY of us have a truly superior / musical bass by painstakingly positioning our speakers and/or bought Jim's book (implying some have not) and since you claim you "got it right", then why are you not supporting my effort here to help ensure others are aware of its existence and that it's entirely free? Or are you just upset because maybe you really don't have the superior bass you thought?


Good for you.

Perhaps Peter is willing to provide an in-room recordng demonstrating a superior / musical type of bass that Jim delivered. If not, why not ask Jim for an in-room recording video of one of his client's rooms that you could post here demonstrating the superior / musical type of bass you're thinking of? Shouldn't be too difficult, right? I'm sure Jim would be happy to oblige since it's an excellent marketing opportunity for both you and Jim.


Thanks, mommy. But taking into consideration all the potential deficiencies here, I really don't give a rat's behind even if the allegation was true. Nevertheless, such deragatory ad hominem comments say more about the person making them and those like you that condone and partake in such behavior. Given your comments, did my adage about wisdom vs foolish go over your head?


Videos ain't the tell-all for sure but as stated elsewhere but they can certainly give a good indication what a system is or isn't. And an in-room recording certainly tells anyone with even the most basic listening skills more about what you think you're heariing than your mere words.

My room has carpeting/pad and some minimal furishings so I'd hardly call it an untreated room. But it does not include any purchased acoustic treatments if that's what you mean. Does Jim say it's a requirement?

Oh, and the 100+ db is significant. One is to ensure a fraction of the gestat makes it to the recording. Two is most systems are simply intolerable near or at these listening levels. By all means, crank up some Van Halen just to confirm.

What's funny is you make this horror face because you cannot comprehend what's going on. What you cannot comprehend is, I don't need acoustic treatments like you do and I play my music upwards of 100+ db because I can and it's frickin' enjoyable as all git out. What you fail to comprehend is you and MANY others cannot do these things.


We agree on something. Last time I checked, limitations are everywhere and infinite. But was there a point to stating the obvious?


Well, Mike's system is quite a ways up the food chain. I was kinda' hoping to start off with a much easier system like perhaps yours. But I suppose that wouldn't be a good use of our time. Good thinkiing on your part.

Without blinking an eye, I absolutely would choose mine. I mean that is the response you were dying to hear, right?

Mike seemingly is quite fastidious performing due diligence when required, etc. As near as I can tell, he gets it and he has a tremendous passion for high-end audio. I only wish others approached high-end audio with his passion. Hint, hint.

IOW, Mike is no slouch and I'd venture his system isn't either. Unlike you, Mike comprehends much about this industry. But he did say in this thread that a superior / musical bass does exist but it's not free and one had to pay the piper and I've no clue what he meant by that. Near as I can tell, Mike (and others), put great reliance on status quo items like acoustic treatments, custom rooms, traditional forms of vibration mgmt, etc for which I've no use. Mike's system has most of the near best of everything whereas my podunk system has almost nothing. Clearly our wallets and strategies toward building an extremely well-thought-out system are perhaps polar opposite in most cases.

Given that and having never actually heard Mike's system (I never presume performance with my eyes) and given what I've accomplished with my system, if I were to enter some winner-take-all type of competition with all the marbles at stake, I'd have to opt to enter my own over Mike's.

Is that ample enough fodder for ya' big guy?

Stehno what you call " truly superior / musical bass" is what many other audiophiles enjoy every day, we just don't make that big a deal about it .Your system must truly have sounded awful before you achieved " truly superior / musical bass", it seems to have been a life altering point in your audiophile career, you keep on babbling about it. I will try not to get personal with you about the sound of your system and it's capabilities, as i said i don't give much credence to videos, and have not heard it personally, but " a skilled driver in a Bugatti Veyron " to quote you again, you are not ! The only thing you seem to be in unlimited supply of, is bragging and over confidence. It is wonderful that you are so happy with the sound of your system, and i suspect in the limited scope of real life high-end systems you are exposed to, it is the best you have ever heard Please post more videos of you system playing at 100db, they are truly enlightening, we all enjoy them, and the overwhelming positive replies you have garnered for them is a testament to your great skill as a audiophile. I just love the 1, 2, 3 knock out punch they provide every day, maybe you can go up to 4 a day. Or is 3 the right number in your head ? Keep up the good work, you inspire so many !

 

[stehno]

Stehno what you call " truly superior / musical bass" is what many other audiophiles enjoy every day, we just don't make that big a deal about it .Your system must truly have sounded awful before you achieved " truly superior / musical bass", it seems to have been a life altering point in your audiophile career, you keep on babbling about it. I will try not to get personal with you about the sound of your system and it's capabilities, as i said i don't give much credence to videos, and have not heard it personally, but " a skilled driver in a Bugatti Veyron " to quote you again, you are not ! The only thing you seem to be in unlimited supply of, is bragging and over confidence. It is wonderful that you are so happy with the sound of your system, and i suspect in the limited scope of real life high-end systems you are exposed to, it is the best you have ever heard Please post more videos of you system playing at 100db, they are truly enlightening, we all enjoy them, and the overwhelming positive replies you have garnered for them is a testament to your great skill as a audiophile. I just love the 1, 2, 3 knock out punch they provide every day, maybe you can go up to 4 a day. Or is 3 the right number in your head ? Keep up the good work, you inspire so many !

Nice. Like my momma used to say, if you throw rocks into a pack of Chihuahuas, the ones that yipe the loudest are usually the ones that got hit.

You must have cranked up Van Halen like I suggested and it made you even more upset as you ran out of the room. But please remember, I'm just the messenger here.

I asked you maybe 15 specific questions in my last post and you don't have the fortitude to answer even one. Isn't that what they call, all image and no substance? Which only further confirms my suspicions of you. Not that I needed any confirmation because you're already a walking billboard.

BTW, the superior / musical bass thing I've shared here that you and your buds hope to squash was just something I accidentally stumbled upon in 2002 but then was able to repeat it 2 more tiimes in 2 more rooms with a lot of hell to pay especially this last time, and for which I'm still tuning. Yet, my only intention was share that because it's quite obvious not many know about it and it's free. Forigive me for giving consideration to guys like you.

My bragging rights as you put it belong to another technology having zero to do with acoustically coupling a speaker to its room - though it will greatly enhance the bass whichever side of the fence it's on. It's that technology that has completely nullified my need for acoustic treatments, custom rooms, traditional vibration mgmt strategies, costly gear, etc, having allowed me to downgrade my gear while upgrading performance, listen to even poorly-engineered recordings near / at live performance levels with ease, along with maybe 10 or 15 other sonic benefits.

Then again, if you're too busy choking on milk, how could you possibly swallow any meat? If you know what I mean?

 

[Lagonda]

There you go quoting your "momma" again. Is she the one that has told you that you have the best system, with the most " truly superior / musical bass" ? A few of us have wondered if that is where all you great thinking and writing is being done, in your " mommas" dark basement, with Van Halen playing really loud. Did your great audio discoveries coincide with you becoming of legal drinking age, or with discovery of other substances ? So in 2002 you managed to place your speakers in the right position in the room, and you where changed forever ! That you have been downgrading your system ever since, explains a lot Getting specific with an elusive guy like you, is a total waste of time, and would require reading trough your long self absorbed posts, fabulating about imaginary audio discoveries, the Sandman normally gets me halfway trough your posts. The little voice in your head telling you to post another 100db video, could actually be the first signs of noise induced tinnitus or something more malignant, have your " momma" set up a appointment to have it checked out We are all waiting for your marketing of your "other" great audio discovery, placing your speakers right, is regretfully hard for you to capitalize on. Keep up the good work stehno, so many rely on you !

 

[Tim Link]

I wanted to put this topic out there because it doesn’t seem many are chompin' at the bit to initiate a thread to discuss achieving a musical bass. I lack much understanding about bass when I read the forums and from what I can tell it seems some others do too. Many of us love to talk about fabulous bass and yet it seems if somebody mentions some type of distinction between a typical bass and a superior bass, some get that dear in the headlights look or go silent.

I say musical bass does exist and is a rather radical departure from the typical bass many have been accustomed to. One listen and I think anybody would be convinced it exists, even if their hearing aids were turned off. I would even go so far to say a musical bass draws us into the performance perhaps more than any other sonic characteristic – especially for what it does to the entire presentation and is perhaps the single biggest contributor toward a musical system.

By no means would I say a musical bass is easy to achieve (I think it's one of the most difficult things to achieve) but it is entirely free provided one already has the hardware to sufficiently cover those frequencies. In fact, I would call musical bass one of high-end audio’s best hidden treasures.

Most of us have some rather limited exposure to some varied strategies, methods, options, etc. and some that come to mind include:

• Speaker and/or subwoofer designs, sufficient power, heft, size, tuning options, etc.
• Bass driver speed - quick vs not so quick – does speed matter or does it improve with tuning?
• Single vs multiple vs stacked vs towers, etc.
• Speaker- subwoofer-to-floor interface i.e couple vs decouple, materials, designs, executions, etc.
• Minimum system requirements e.g. main speaker siize, main amp power, is a subwoofer needed, etc?
• Dependencies on caliber of playback system/rooms or is it independent of other parts of the playback vineyard?
• Cable lengths, single-ended vs xlr, match / not match other cables in the system, cryo-treat, etc.
• Do cabling differences even audibly impact lower frequencies?
• Subwoofer placement options
• Room requirements e.g. designs and acoustics, dimensions, treatments, bass traps, etc?
• Measurements – what to measure, interpreting findings, etc. Are they meaningful or meaningless?
• Subwoofer-to-main speaker integrations e.g. high- or low-level inputs, driver alignments, etc.
• Speaker positioning significance/insignificance, etc.
• Cost/performance ratios – are there associated costs?
• Subwoofer placement, tuning abilities, sealed vs open port, driver size, materials, servo-control, down-, front-, side-, rear-firing, etc.
• Hiring professionals vs DIY
• Hard and fast rules / guidelines – never vs always
• Is achieving a reasonable or better bass overly complex or simple, does one ever arrive?
• Terminology used to describe bass types e.g. slow, woolly, ill-defined, well-defined, deep, taut, quick, pronounced, musical, etc
• Etc.

To some degree I’m guessing it all matters but that’s a lot of potential strategies / options just from this incomplete list about a single subject. I’m thinking more options are probably related to the bass sector than perhaps any other single part of the playback vineyard. Who might have the expert, first-hand, quality-oriented knowledge and experience in all of these areas and potential combinations thereof?

Though some are clearly more expert than others, I’m still guessing with so many variables and combinations of variables, such bass guru’s don’t really exist. Sure some speak with confidence about many of the strategies and options but to have intimate expert knowledge of most all possible combinations about what works and what doesn’t work seems hard to fathom, but still. I’ll admit that I’m intimidated by much of the tech talk about bass (and other things) but I’ve gone out to a few subwoofer mfg’ers websites and I’m not entirely convinced all of them know exactly what’s going on either.

Does it exist? Is it possible to achieve a superior bass with these and/or other options? Are some options potentially more right than others? If so, does that imply some options are inferior? How does one get there?

Anyway, below are a couple of examples of what I consider a superior / musical bass.

What say you?

BTW, thank goodness I don’t employ an active linestage anymore. Then again, an active linestage inserting certain characteristics into the playback presentation is just one more option or strategy toward a superior bass, right?

stehno, I very much appreciate the fact that you've got something going on that is very pleasing and you are wanting to share it. I want my bass to be as good as it can be, and I appreciate any new information.

I've listened to your videos and it sounds to me like the bass is pretty good without any terrible issues that are common with rooms, but I can't hear what you're describing as exceptional from these videos. The original recordings over headphones have better bass to my ears, which is to be expected. There's some real usefulness to these kind of videos but I think they're better at revealing obvious problems in response, like a strong dip or a hump or reverberation in the bass than revealing something like exceptionally musical bass as perceived when you are actually in the room. You're going to have to invite people over I think for a first hand demonstration to really share what you've got going on.

I know measurements never tell the whole story but I don't think they hurt either. Here at ASC we have managed to find a pretty strong correlation between what people perceive as musical bass and measurements such as those taken in REW or by recording our MATT test playing in the room and sending us the recording for analysis. A C50 measurement from the listening position of 10 or higher through the bass range with reasonably smooth response is generally perceived as clear, articulate, detailed, dynamic, musical bass. I suspect that your system and room setup meets these specifications. I've seen other systems in rooms with measurements that manage these specs without any specific acoustic treatments so I know it can be done. It's easy to test with REW and a calibrated mic. hooked up to your laptop. I'm always interested in getting measurements from rooms that are perceived as having highly musical bass, especially when they aren't using acoustic treatments. It's also interesting to see if there's ever a case where all the measurements look good but the bass is perceived as lacking. I read a forum post years ago by a guy that said he never liked horn loaded bass because no matter how much he turned it up and how loud it measured it always sounded lacking to him. That's very interesting to me. Without any measurements I can only speculate about possible causes but I believe him and the answer for him was simple - don't use horn loaded bass!

I have horn loaded bass and I have measured it. It sounds very good and musical to me, like I've wanted for years but only in the last few years achieved in my current listening area. The distortion is low, no notes boom, I can follow delicate plucked bass lines buried among other instruments easily, and as someone who has played upright bass it sounds tonally correct enough to make me happy. I can turn it up dangerously loud without the bass getting out of control. It's mostly what I want, but I can certainly imagine it being better. A C50 of 15 db through the bass range is audibly better than the 10db I currently have, and my response could be smoother. I've got a back wall reflection that creates a sharp dip at about 80Hz at the listening position. On some music this reveals itself as a missing or very weak note.

 

[stehno]

stehno, I very much appreciate the fact that you've got something going on that is very pleasing and you are wanting to share it. I want my bass to be as good as it can be, and I appreciate any new information.

Thanks for the kind note, Tim.

I've listened to your videos and it sounds to me like the bass is pretty good without any terrible issues that are common with rooms, but I can't hear what you're describing as exceptional from these videos. The original recordings over headphones have better bass to my ears, which is to be expected. There's some real usefulness to these kind of videos but I think they're better at revealing obvious problems in response, like a strong dip or a hump or reverberation in the bass than revealing something like exceptionally musical bass as perceived when you are actually in the room. You're going to have to invite people over I think for a first hand demonstration to really share what you've got going on.

Indeed, in-room recordings are quite limited in what they reveal. I like to think of it as getting a good glimpse (not stare) as to what could be happening in the listening room but that's about it. The bass, dynamics, and overall gestalt easily seem to be the most limited - in my case anyway.

If others posted in-room recordings, then there's potential for reference and comparisions. Bass in particular is limited because 3-D bass between headphones is nothing like 3-D bass in the room. Especially since lower frequencies are so much more omni-directional and impacting and engaging than what headphone can reveal. A small stereo condensor mic and/or headphones seem to capture / reproduce only a remnant (almost a fraction) of that in-room experience. Even so, a remnant can often times be good enough provided we're reminded from time to time some of the sonic characteristics are barely a remnant.

I know measurements never tell the whole story but I don't think they hurt either.

I appreciate your saying that. In general I've stayed away from measurements but I think you're right regarding your respect for measurements. Like in-room recordings, I'm guessing measurements often times cannot tell the whole story and of course sometimes people (not saying you) don't even know what they're measuring and/or how to interpret their findings. Yet, still decide to live or die with those findings and next thing you know, measurements have now become the new holy grail rather than the playback presentation itself. Not saying you of course but there's plenty out there who seem to have gone that route.

But in the hands of a reasonable and knowledgeable type, I've no doubt measurements can be rather beneficial and can establish a reasonable benchmarks for at least some things. At least for that person if not for others too.

Here at ASC we have managed to find a pretty strong correlation between what people perceive as musical bass and measurements such as those taken in REW or by recording our MATT test playing in the room and sending us the recording for analysis. A C50 measurement from the listening position of 10 or higher through the bass range with reasonably smooth response is generally perceived as clear, articulate, detailed, dynamic, musical bass. I suspect that your system and room setup meets these specifications. I've seen other systems in rooms with measurements that manage these specs without any specific acoustic treatments so I know it can be done. It's easy to test with REW and a calibrated mic. hooked up to your laptop. I'm always interested in getting measurements from rooms that are perceived as having highly musical bass, especially when they aren't using acoustic treatments. It's also interesting to see if there's ever a case where all the measurements look good but the bass is perceived as lacking.

I've never attempted to measure anything regarding playback sound other than db levels. I've got a Shure MV88 stereo condenser mic and an iPhone 12. Assuming that hardware is sufficient enough, If there's an app I can download and if it's not too time consuming, I'd be more than happy to give it whirl and send you the results. Sometimes some / any info is better than no info, right? Of course, if your travels ever take you to the Portland/Salem, Oregon area, you're most welcome to visit.

I read a forum post years ago by a guy that said he never liked horn loaded bass because no matter how much he turned it up and how loud it measured it always sounded lacking to him. That's very interesting to me. Without any measurements I can only speculate about possible causes but I believe him and the answer for him was simple - don't use horn loaded bass!

I have horn loaded bass and I have measured it. It sounds very good and musical to me, like I've wanted for years but only in the last few years achieved in my current listening area. The distortion is low, no notes boom, I can follow delicate plucked bass lines buried among other instruments easily, and as someone who has played upright bass it sounds tonally correct enough to make me happy. I can turn it up dangerously loud without the bass getting out of control.

My experience with horns especially in the bass is quite limited. There is a a member out here with horn-loaded bass and the in-room recording he presented was rather nice and telling. From that video anyway, it certainly seems like it can be done with horns.

It's mostly what I want, but I can certainly imagine it being better. A C50 of 15 db through the bass range is audibly better than the 10db I currently have, and my response could be smoother. I've got a back wall reflection that creates a sharp dip at about 80Hz at the listening position. On some music this reveals itself as a missing or very weak note.

Interesting. As I recall, you've a pretty good ear and you're well into the acoustic treatment side of things so I'm sure you've done what you reasonably could there. For grins, would you mind sharing your room dimensions and speaker / subwoofer placement within? Not that those things would necessarily tell much of anything visually but it would be interesting to know. One thing I've noticed about locating an or the optimal placement is suckouts and overloads seem to become absolutely minimized and perhaps eliminated - along with the other benefits previously mentioned. If that's true, that would make sense if / when a speaker truly becomes acoustically coupled to the room.

Anyway, thanks again for the note.

 

[Tim Link]

Thanks for the kind note, Tim.


Indeed, in-room recordings are quite limited in what they reveal. I like to think of it as getting a good glimpse (not stare) as to what could be happening in the listening room but that's about it. The bass, dynamics, and overall gestalt easily seem to be the most limited - in my case anyway.

If others posted in-room recordings, then there's potential for reference and comparisions. Bass in particular is limited because 3-D bass between headphones is nothing like 3-D bass in the room. Especially since lower frequencies are so much more omni-directional and impacting and engaging than what headphone can reveal. A small stereo condensor mic and/or headphones seem to capture / reproduce only a remnant (almost a fraction) of that in-room experience. Even so, a remnant can often times be good enough provided we're reminded from time to time some of the sonic characteristics are barely a remnant.


I appreciate your saying that. In general I've stayed away from measurements but I think you're right regarding your respect for measurements. Like in-room recordings, I'm guessing measurements often times cannot tell the whole story and of course sometimes people (not saying you) don't even know what they're measuring and/or how to interpret their findings. Yet, still decide to live or die with those findings and next thing you know, measurements have now become the new holy grail rather than the playback presentation itself. Not saying you of course but there's plenty out there who seem to have gone that route.

But in the hands of a reasonable and knowledgeable type, I've no doubt measurements can be rather beneficial and can establish a reasonable benchmarks for at least some things. At least for that person if not for others too.


I've never attempted to measure anything regarding playback sound other than db levels. I've got a Shure MV88 stereo condenser mic and an iPhone 12. Assuming that hardware is sufficient enough, If there's an app I can download and if it's not too time consuming, I'd be more than happy to give it whirl and send you the results. Sometimes some / any info is better than no info, right? Of course, if your travels ever take you to the Portland/Salem, Oregon area, you're most welcome to visit.


My experience with horns especially in the bass is quite limited. There is a a member out here with horn-loaded bass and the in-room recording he presented was rather nice and telling. From that video anyway, it certainly seems like it can be done with horns.


Interesting. As I recall, you've a pretty good ear and you're well into the acoustic treatment side of things so I'm sure you've done what you reasonably could there. For grins, would you mind sharing your room dimensions and speaker / subwoofer placement within? Not that those things would necessarily tell much of anything visually but it would be interesting to know. One thing I've noticed about locating an or the optimal placement is suckouts and overloads seem to become absolutely minimized and perhaps eliminated - along with the other benefits previously mentioned. If that's true, that would make sense if / when a speaker truly becomes acoustically coupled to the room.

Anyway, thanks again for the note.

stehno,

My room is 14.5 feet wide and about 22 feet long at it's longest. The ceiling is 92" - in some areas. I know that very well because I built the speakers to stack up to 91" so they would just fit. They almost just didn't fit because the ceiling sags a little as it moves away from the walls! It would have been comic tragedy if they didn't fit. In the back the left wall staggers inward a couple times for the front door and a closet, so the back wall isn't as wide as the front but it's still a fairly large flat area, about 8 feet wide. There are openings toward the back of the room to the right for the kitchen and hallway. The speakers are large corner horns, so they are placed directly in the front corners. There are four bass cabinets per horn stack with the tweeter and midrange horns sandwiched between. This launches a vertically flat bass wave into the room so I don't have floor to ceiling bounce, but still side to side and front to back. The side to side is somewhat damped by windows and a sliding glass door just ahead of the speakers. Windows tend to leak bass. I need to re-check that 82 Hz suckout to make sure it's just in the listening position. I recall an experiment a few years back where I found a frequency that seemed to be missing from almost the entire room except for right up close to the windows, or if I put my head inside the bass horns. It seemed impossible. A whole room anti-mode?
Even though I sell acoustics I currently don't have any bass traps in there! I borrowed some from work to experiment with and it was immediately clear that I wasn't going to be able to use the floor standing TubeTraps due to lack of available floor space in there. It's a multi-use room and I've already hogged the two front corners with giant speakers. My best option looks to be the acoustic soffit. But even that has complications because of curtain hangers above the windows that will all have to come down. I guess that doesn't matter because the curtains are always left open anyways.

 

[pjwd]

whole room anti-mode?

Tim ... that is weird is it possible that one of your openings and connected space is acting like a giant helmholtz resonator or your windows acting as a absorbing membrane tuned to 82Hz .. the latter might explain why you can measure it close to the glass
One of my rooms is acoustically sealed with rigid and dense construction so no sound escapes or is absorbed .. before we fitted it out we played pure tones and you could walk across the room and hear the dips and peaks at the calculated spots ... it was dramatically different and kind of spooky but nice to confirm the science

I'm sure its still similar as acoustic treatments wont have much effect on them

In a room with lossy membrane walls ( ie sheetrock) and openings to other spaces its hard to predict what is going on but playing pure tones and walking around is interesting

Sound like quite a speaker set up you have there

Phil

 

[Tim Link]

Tim ... that is weird is it possible that one of your openings and connected space is acting like a giant helmholtz resonator or your windows acting as a absorbing membrane tuned to 82Hz .. the latter might explain why you can measure it close to the glass
One of my rooms is acoustically sealed with rigid and dense construction so no sound escapes or is absorbed .. before we fitted it out we played pure tones and you could walk across the room and hear the dips and peaks at the calculated spots ... it was dramatically different and kind of spooky but nice to confirm the science

I'm sure its still similar as acoustic treatments wont have much effect on them

In a room with lossy membrane walls ( ie sheetrock) and openings to other spaces its hard to predict what is going on but playing pure tones and walking around is interesting

Sound like quite a speaker set up you have there

Phil

Phil,

I did some experimenting earlier this afternoon and verified that the response is low room wide.I walked down the halls and opened the windows and doors. The bass note was nowhere to be heard. I took measurements all over the room of a short sweep with REW and the notched response was consistent. There's some build up near the walls and windows so I can hear the otherwise very weak output at that frequency a little better if I turn it up. I suspect it's a characteristic of the folded bass horns I have. These are quarter wave folded horns and they don't really flare out long enough or with a big enough mouth to go as low as I'm loading them without some compromises in smoothness of response. The folds might be part of the problem. Corner placement helps but there's still a large inconsistency where the horn mouth opens up into the room.

I decided out of curiosity to listen to short tone bursts using REW's tone generator. The short bursts don't vary nearly as much in perceived loudness as sustained sine tones do. I can easily hear them at the problem frequency just about as loud as any other frequency, so it seems the cancellation takes a little time to fully develop, just as a room mode does, which is why modes are not always the problem with real music that one might suspect. Depends on the music. So a plucked bass line will, as I have noticed, seem to have no missing notes but longer sustained notes may be noticeably lacking.

Now I'm wondering if a sustained note with enough tremolo will remain audible. Time for another experiment.

Edit 30 minutes or so later: I experimented with some tremolo tones and while they are more noticeable than a sustained tone, a 100Hz tremolo is still considerably louder than the troublesome 85Hz with the same tremolo applied. A changing amplitude tone or tone burst has other frequencies in it along with the fundamental so that's probably what's tipping my ear off to it's presence.

 

[thedudeabides]

Have we reached a conclusion if musical bass exists? I suspect that's impossible to do given the inherent subjectivity and numerous variables of this hobby.

 

[PeterA]

Have we reached a conclusion if musical bass exists? I suspect that's impossible to do given the inherent subjectivity and numerous variables of this hobby.

I do not know what you mean by “musical” bass, but I have heard very natural base in a large horn system with vintage JBL subwoofers driven by SET amplifiers. I think the electronics and turntable had a lot to do with it.

Natural or realistic and convincing bass performance does exist IMO. I think it is achievable with proper component choice and careful set up.

 

[pjwd]

Phil,

I did some experimenting earlier this afternoon and verified that the response is low room wide.I walked down the halls and opened the windows and doors. The bass note was nowhere to be heard. I took measurements all over the room of a short sweep with REW and the notched response was consistent. There's some build up near the walls and windows so I can hear the otherwise very weak output at that frequency a little better if I turn it up. I suspect it's a characteristic of the folded bass horns I have. These are quarter wave folded horns and they don't really flare out long enough or with a big enough mouth to go as low as I'm loading them without some compromises in smoothness of response. The folds might be part of the problem. Corner placement helps but there's still a large inconsistency where the horn mouth opens up into the room.

I decided out of curiosity to listen to short tone bursts using REW's tone generator. The short bursts don't vary nearly as much in perceived loudness as sustained sine tones do. I can easily hear them at the problem frequency just about as loud as any other frequency, so it seems the cancellation takes a little time to fully develop, just as a room mode does, which is why modes are not always the problem with real music that one might suspect. Depends on the music. So a plucked bass line will, as I have noticed, seem to have no missing notes but longer sustained notes may be noticeably lacking.

Now I'm wondering if a sustained note with enough tremolo will remain audible. Time for another experiment.

Edit 30 minutes or so later: I experimented with some tremolo tones and while they are more noticeable than a sustained tone, a 100Hz tremolo is still considerably louder than the troublesome 85Hz with the same tremolo applied. A changing amplitude tone or tone burst has other frequencies in it along with the fundamental so that's probably what's tipping my ear off to it's presence.

Tim
I am impressed with your detective work !
I recall you measured at the mouth of horns and there was no dip so it's getting into the space
If there is no bass in adjacent spaces then i suspect its a wall or window acting as a membrane absorber .. it would need to be a large area to have such a comprehensive effect
That is the thing you cant accurately calculate in a design as the wall systems are not all precisely the same
Of course I am making assumptions based on a small amount of knowledge so ... ???
Would it be too crazy to measure on the other side of wall or window to see if there is a 85 Hz peak

Phil

 

[thedudeabides]

I do not know what you mean by “musical” bass, but I have heard very natural base in a large horn system with vintage JBL subwoofers driven by SET amplifiers. I think the electronics and turntable had a lot to do with it.

Natural or realistic and convincing bass performance does exist IMO. I think it is achievable with proper component choice and careful set up.

Hi Peter,

I was quoting the OP's thread title. Hence my question. I'm sure it does but it takes good system matching and synergy. And, of course and in the end, it's all subjective.

 

[Tim Link]

Tim
I am impressed with your detective work !
I recall you measured at the mouth of horns and there was no dip so it's getting into the space
If there is no bass in adjacent spaces then i suspect its a wall or window acting as a membrane absorber .. it would need to be a large area to have such a comprehensive effect
That is the thing you cant accurately calculate in a design as the wall systems are not all precisely the same
Of course I am making assumptions based on a small amount of knowledge so ... ???
Would it be too crazy to measure on the other side of wall or window to see if there is a 85 Hz peak

Phil

I have gone outside to try to hear it on the other sides of the windows and walls. I couldn't hear anything. There's still a possibility that it could be trapped in the space between the drywall and the framing, but it seems unlikely. I once partially disassembled the speakers and tried to measure the response inside the woofer back chambers, which are connected. The microphone came off the cord and fell down in there, where it is now very safely stored because I can't get to it. I did get a measurement before that happened but can't remember what it revealed. I'll try it again - with my new microphone. I was hoping it would show something that might shed some light on the issue but I don't think it did. I think even with the back chambers venting into the room the response changed very little. I also tried stuffing some of the horn mouths with pillows and blankets and I think that slightly changed the notch frequency. My friend also recalls hearing that note missing when the speakers where being built and tested at his house. I didn't pay close attention to it at the time because I assumed it was a room cancellation. I'd like to take these bass horns outside and test them but that's really hard to do. It blows my mind that the woofer can be definitely making sound inside the cabinet but it just doesn't make it out into the room. I know bandpass boxes do that, effectively cutting out all frequencies higher than the cutoff with a purely mechanical design. Perhaps it's possible that I accidentally made a broken bandpass box that cuts out and then comes back on. I recall that the Klipsch mid-horn and compression driver had a dip in response before coming back up and then finally cutting out. Paul got rid of that by modifying the compression chamber.

 

[sbnx]

When it comes to bass a picture is worth a 10000 words. This is a frequency response of my system/room at 1/24 octave smoothing from 20Hz to 200Hz. There are two pretty narrow partial cancelations but otherwise pretty flat. I do have two subs crossed over below 35 Hz and not in a distributed bass array. It took a good bit of effort to get to this point. Part of it was free but part of it was bought an paid for. I am pretty sure I could do a little better if I move my listening position back 4" and reposition the speakers some but I am not sure it is worth it at this point.

 

[ddk]

@stehno it's all about the bass! IME the more natural, uncolored and high resolution the bass the more natural and real the overall sound of the system. Bass is also the hardest part to get right for designers and manufacturers of all equipment. IME very few do bass right and even if the equipment is somewhat competent the end user screws it all up more often than not, starting with audiophile powercords and thinking of cables as components overwhelming the entire system instead of simple transmitters of signal with minimal signature all the way down to footers, foundation platforms and racks that create their own color and quality of bass. Most of the systems I come across are so highly homogenized by ancillaries that they end up with hifi bass irrespective of the bass quality of their equipment. The systems I'm talking about are all in hundreds of thousands of dollars range and lack real natural bass.

Discussing real natural high resolution bass is a difficult concept to convey it seems, reading the posts in this thread there seems to be a confusion regarding bass quality, ie tone, timbre, texture, cadence, resolution and naturalness versus quantity and response many focus on. It's also a topic that you can't have an open and honest discussion about without stepping on and crushing many toes and they scream back, as you've noticed. It's definitely possible to get natural musical bass from a system but it's gets harder and harder aspiring for more and more natural bass.

david