State-of-the-Art Digital

[morricab]

By the way, if anyone asked me what a well-treated room sounds like, I'd really want to say "alive", but probably give a fishy reply such as "it's a compromise" when the real answer should be "not like a room". The problem is there's already room information on most recordings. That's the room you want to get transported to. Not overlay the characteristics of the recording venue with issues of one's listening room. But I'll say this: when I think of acoustic treatment, I do NOT mean overly dampened. It's a personal choice, but I'd rather have a room that errs on the side of liveliness than dullness. It's just my experience that this is also the most common excuse audiophiles use who won't treat their room (for a number of reasons, WAF being one of them, HiFi dealers who merely want to sell them more expensive equipment on a never-ending quest to "solve the problem" another) because they believe theirs is just a bit lively, perhaps average or better. In reality, the average living room is strictly awful, especially in modern buildings. Once you've treated it properly, you'll want those years back you spent in there listening to your system, your money back for equipment and in particular gadgets you'd not have needed etc. Last but not least, you'll sit there enjoying the playback wondering what happened to the "digititis" of your SOTA DAC.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

People are on a never ending quest mostly because they don’t have a clue what the quest should be...not because their room is causing their so-called SOTA DAC to sound like it has digititis (this just tells me they probably bought overpriced junk masquerading as SOTA).

 

[morricab]

Not following?! If one can make the digititis disappear by any manipulation other than replacing the DAC, then logically the DAC is not the cause. A simple process of elimination would seem to preclude such a possibility. Sincerely confused by your statement, but then, I may have had a window seat in science classes.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Rather than a complicated and time consuming room overhaul, a simple DAC swap (you can borrow one from a friend even) would also tell you if the problem lay in the room or your DAC. Hope that clarifies...

 

[Mikem53]

People are on a never ending quest mostly because they don’t have a clue what the quest should be...not because their room is causing their so-called SOTA DAC to sound like it has digititis (this just tells me they probably bought overpriced junk masquerading as SOTA).

Well my quest may be never ending, but I’m enjoying the music with each iteration of equipment and tweaks I make. I guess you can call me clueless but happy. At least my junk isn’t too overpriced.

 

[acousticsguru]

People are on a never ending quest mostly because they don’t have a clue what the quest should be...not because their room is causing their so-called SOTA DAC to sound like it has digititis (this just tells me they probably bought overpriced junk masquerading as SOTA).

You're saying people who are on such a never-ending quest hadn't better look at their room? That's like saying you want them to merrily continue on. My point was rather to the contrary: those people who have SOTA DACs and aren't complaining about digititis tend to listen in acoustically treated rooms. Those who do complain may want to consider they're barking up the wrong tree. But you're right, they may not want to.

The least likely scenario is this: that they're happy because they somewhat miraculously managed to mix and match their system to cover up such a glaring (pun intended) flaw. And even if they did, the resulting system would be guaranteed to sound unnatural. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[morricab]

Well my quest may be never ending, but I’m enjoying the music with each iteration of equipment and tweaks I make. I guess you can call me clueless but happy. At least my junk isn’t too overpriced.

Well, for some the quest is trying as much gear as possible before one dies...perhaps that is your quest? You wouldn’t be the first such person I knew...

 

[acousticsguru]

Rather than a complicated and time consuming room overhaul, a simple DAC swap (you can borrow one from a friend even) would also tell you if the problem lay in the room or your DAC. Hope that clarifies...

But that's been my point all along: if the problem of digititis persists, one may want to look at the next best cause, i.e. the one that sounds most like "digititis", and that is comb filtering.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[morricab]

You're saying people who are on such a never-ending quest hadn't better look at their room? That's like saying you want them to merrily continue on. My point was rather to the contrary: those people who have SOTA DACs and aren't complaining about digititis tend to listen in acoustically treated rooms. Those who do complain may want to consider they're barking up the wrong tree. But you're right, they may not want to.

The least likely scenario is this: that they're happy because they somewhat miraculously managed to mix and match their system to cover up such a glaring (pun intended) flaw. And even if they did, the resulting system would be guaranteed to sound unnatural. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

No, I never said this...stop making a strawman from what i did say.

 

[morricab]

But that's been my point all along: if the problem of digititis persists, one may want to look at the next best cause, i.e. the one that sounds most like "digititis", and that is comb filtering.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

That was not your initial point, it might have morphed into that but you started somewhere different or communicated it rather poorly.

 

[acousticsguru]

Rather than a complicated and time consuming room overhaul, a simple DAC swap (you can borrow one from a friend even) would also tell you if the problem lay in the room or your DAC. Hope that clarifies...

Logically, of course, that simple DAC swap is going to result in a (not so) complicated and (not so) time consuming room overhaul, as you call it.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[Mikem53]

Well, for some the quest is trying as much gear as possible before one dies...perhaps that is your quest? You wouldn’t be the first such person I knew...

Well we all can’t start off with the perfect gear, like others think they can..

 

[morricab]

You're saying people who are on such a never-ending quest hadn't better look at their room? That's like saying you want them to merrily continue on. My point was rather to the contrary: those people who have SOTA DACs and aren't complaining about digititis tend to listen in acoustically treated rooms. Those who do complain may want to consider they're barking up the wrong tree. But you're right, they may not want to.

The least likely scenario is this: that they're happy because they somewhat miraculously managed to mix and match their system to cover up such a glaring (pun intended) flaw. And even if they did, the resulting system would be guaranteed to sound unnatural. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Also, I don’t know how you can even begin to prove your assertion that people with SOTA DACs that don’t have an issue with digititis are listening in predominantly treated rooms. Complete conjecture on your part.

 

[morricab]

Logically, of course, that simple DAC swap is going to result in a (not so) complicated and (not so) time consuming room overhaul, as you call it.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Not if it got rid of the offending issues...

 

[morricab]

Well we all can’t start off with the perfect gear, like others think they can..

True, I wasn’t suggesting that no gear upgrades are needed...but it needs a direction. My gear consumption slowed down significantly once I adopted an objective...at least in my main system. I also have an experimental system where I try new things like speaker design.

 

[acousticsguru]

That was not your initial point, it might have morphed into that but you started somewhere different or communicated it rather poorly

My point, all along, was that I'm concerned audiophiles make blank statements about source components or brands, especially dismissive, without making sure the reason is not the room. I'm not sure in what way that now differs from what I'm saying?

You're entirely correct about the possible shortcut to get a helpful answer, try another DAC (another I mentioned was to try distortion-free headphones to exclude the source component as the potential culprit in this scenario), but I'm afraid that those who make dismissive statements are the same who'll never address the fundamental issues. Such as treat room acoustics before making blank statements about gear.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[acousticsguru]

Not if it got rid of the offending issues...

We were talking about people who make dismissive blank statements about components or brands that thousands of other users don't have an issue with, remember?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[morricab]

But that's been my point all along: if the problem of digititis persists, one may want to look at the next best cause, i.e. the one that sounds most like "digititis", and that is comb filtering.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

The next best cause? Oh, you mean like the power or the amp/preamp?? Ever had the late night effect, where suddenly everything sounds MICH better?

Back when I was KR dealer (around 2008). I was in the KR/Cessaro room talking with a guy at the end of the day. The room had thus far been a disappointment with a harsh gritty highs and relatively fat sound stage and, surprisingly flatfish dynamics. At around 18:00, when the show stopped suddenly the sound got WAY better. It was so dramatic that it snapped my head away from the conversation and I was stunned by the dynamics and sweet highs and soundstage...seemingly out of nowhere. Then I realized that most systems had shutdown and the power must have been suddenly much cleaner.

The Living Voice Room, which we both love is not a particularly good room or exceptionally treated; however, they are completely decoupled from the MOC power grid (they have a huge battery bank for everything).

 

[acousticsguru]

True, I wasn’t suggesting that no gear upgrades are needed...but it needs a direction. My gear consumption slowed down significantly once I adopted an objective...at least in my main system. I also have an experimental system where I try new things like speaker design.

Same here, if anything I've been upgrading components from the same brands whose sound I've been enjoying for more than twenty years now. I could easily have lived with the older models, for the most part it wasn't an upgrade bug that caused the swap, but a blown cap and output FET in an amp, the availability of higher-resolution digital formats, laziness due to age in wanting to play back from a NAS and not get up from my listening position, hand in hand with easy accessibility of my music library. Of course I don't mind the respective replacements improved the sound, but it's not that I was unhappy with it to begin with, or needed change. Repairs, convenience, in one case space restrictions and a noisy power amp fan, those were the main impetus.

Greetings from Switzerland, David

 

[acousticsguru]

The next best cause? Oh, you mean like the power or the amp/preamp?? Ever had the late night effect, where suddenly everything sounds MICH better?

Back when I was KR dealer (around 2008). I was in the KR/Cessaro room talking with a guy at the end of the day. The room had thus far been a disappointment with a harsh gritty highs and relatively fat sound stage and, surprisingly flatfish dynamics. At around 18:00, when the show stopped suddenly the sound got WAY better. It was so dramatic that it snapped my head away from the conversation and I was stunned by the dynamics and sweet highs and soundstage...seemingly out of nowhere. Then I realized that most systems had shutdown and the power must have been suddenly much cleaner.

The Living Voice Room, which we both love is not a particularly good room or exceptionally treated; however, they are completely decoupled from the MOC power grid (they have a huge battery bank for everything).

But that's not the point: don't you think whatever equipment swap one is performing, one may want to get the best out of it, and if that went along with spending comparatively little money, it might be worth it? Of course I realize you're into selling gear and not acoustic treatment, but I'm neither, and figure that discussing the investment of a thousand bucks isn't disproportional in a thread about SOTA DACs.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[acousticsguru]

People are on a never ending quest mostly because they don’t have a clue what the quest should be...not because their room is causing their so-called SOTA DAC to sound like it has digititis (this just tells me they probably bought overpriced junk masquerading as SOTA).

In truth, you’re reminding me the only “upgrade bug” I’ve felt for some years now is the room. Why? Because I’d set up my system in different places before and it sounded positively glorious in one room that I used to work in for some time (the soundstage size alone, unforgettable!). Now that I’m relegated to my little “music chamber”, even though great listeners like René (you know who, formerly of Audioforum, now ReQest Audio) praised my current setup commenting “Great job eliminating the room”, I cannot get over the fact that’s it’s the same equipment (the amplifier downgrade didn't hurt a thing), and the difference is "day and night" to me. Not really, I'm still enjoying myself greatly, my greatest concern turning on the system is I usually won't go to bed before 4 a.m. when I do, but the difference a room makes, and hence, the difference room treatment makes to get each one to bring out the (relative) best in a system, cannot be overestimated in my opinion.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[microstrip]

But that's been my point all along: if the problem of digititis persists, one may want to look at the next best cause, i.e. the one that sounds most like "digititis", and that is comb filtering.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

I have found that it is one hard thing to do - suppress the comb filtering effects responsible for "hardness" without suppressing the reflections needed to create the envelopment and spaciousness needed for enjoyment.

BTW, the major purpose of the Wilson placing method is minimizing comb filter - I quote the XLF manual :

"Subjectively, comb filter effect evidences itself as follows:
• Added roughness to the sound
• Reduction of harmonic richness
• Smearing of lateral soundstage image focus and placement
Comb filter effects are often caused by side wall reflections. They are best controlled by very careful speaker placement and by the judicious placement of Illbruck Sonex® or air duct panels applied to that part of the wall where the reflection occurs."

My best ever listening session with the Vivaldi stack was with the WAMM speakers at our local distributor - the sound was so coherent, free of artifacts and "liquid" that surpassed anything in this particular aspect that I have listened until today, particularly in soprano and other voices.

But it took two full days to the Wilson team to assemble, position and set up the speakers - immediately after assembly the sound was rough and poor.