My monitor/subwoofer system

[tima]

So I am very happy with my sound after the correction.

Thanks for the follow-up Al. You had several balls in the air with changes to your vibration traps and moving the subwoofers, it took time to sort things out. It reminds me of cartridge setup with all the various parameters that go into getting that right - change one thing and invariably you end up changing something else - VTF, SRA, Azimuth, Skating - iteratively, . Sometime it drives me nuts. I understand subs are an inherent part of your setup; I suppose your recent 'work' goes with the territory.

But hey, we audiophiles - it's what we do. Nice that you got things sorted out ... for now.

 

[PeterA]

Al upgraded all the major components to his system about a year ago. Since then, like me, he has spend his time focusing on set up. He made three changes, fairly radical, in the last few months:

1. He removed most of his absorption panels and TubeTraps from the front wall of his room
2. He removed the subwoofer stands and relocated his subwoofers on the floor close to his main speakers
3. He repositioned his speakers to be closer together and to aim straight ahead with zero toe in

Last night I visited again to learn how these changes affected the sound of his system. After a nice outdoor dinner, we settled into some listening. We played the following CDs:

1. Hilary Hahn, The Angry Birds of Kauai
2. Dutilleux Cello Concerto with Rostropovitch
3. Janaki Trio, Penderecki String Trio
4. Cantata Domino, title track, solo soprano and choral
5. Peter Scheier, lieder music

My immediate impression, after about a minute was that the music was much more alive and natural sounding, if a bit tilted up in tonal balance toward the high frequencies. This was ameliorated as the system warmed up, and after about twenty minutes, the tone was more balanced. As the evening progressed, a few things struck me with the new sound. There was a high degree of energy to the presentation. Al’s system has sounded big and dynamic since I first heard it years ago, but last night, there was a sense of energy from the softest moments to the loudest crescendos. It could play loud, at near live levels without strain, and yet be extremely convincing at much lower volume levels. It was as though the entire room was energized and the lightest touches of a bow against a string leaped out into the room with all of its nuance. This effect I have rarely heard in an audio system. I suspect this is what people love about efficient horns and SETs.

There was a newfound level of clarity and resolution. This is related to the sense of energy. When one hears the softest music clearly it is because the system components can reproduce them, but perhaps more importantly, the room and the set up are not killing them off. I think the combination of removing much of the absorption from the room and toeing the speakers out so that there is more reflected sound enabled us to hear what had previously been obscured. ddk told me that it is all about managing the energy in the room. This does not mean dampening or absorbing, or lessoning the energy. It means managing it so that it sounds natural.

The spatial information is now much more realistically presented. No, there are no precisely defined or outlined images, but the violin, cello, and viola were wonderfully located on stage, separated with air and space around them, their sounds distinct with very natural and convincing timbre. Piano never sounded better or more present. The instruments’ energy filled the stage and then the room around us and it lingered. Before, Al’s system had presented the violin or singer with realistic tone and scale, but they were a bit abstract, not real. Now the system presented that same violin and singer in a real space and we were there in front of the performance. Grandness and scale and swelling quality of the chorus on Cantata Domino was truly impressive, and then Peter Schreier’s voice was clear and intimate, full of emotion.

This sense of space is perhaps the most significant change in the overall presentation of Al’s system because it has transformed the sound from being somewhat “hifi” and artificial, to being much more natural. Before the instruments were a bit flat in a large dark, quiet space. Instruments presented themselves to us in contrast and stark fashion. Last night, the instruments and singers were in real space. The dimensions and character of the space were much more evident. Energy lingered and defined the space. It hung in the air. Previously, there had been a quietness, a blackness to the backgrounds. There was contrast, but it was not convincing. Now, that quietness and black background have been replaced by a calmness and a stillness. Were there was once nothing, there is now latent energy and life, even though there is space between the notes. There is no longer dead silence. There is life. The violin and the tenor were there, on a virtual stage, breathing, moving, performing. And that space had an energy, even during the quiet moments that breathed.

The presentation, the presence of real musicians in real space had never been this convincing in Al’s system. One of our friends had commented that Al likes noise in his system. This is absolutely not the case. What I heard last night was possible because Al has eliminated noise and distortion from his system and room. More information from the recording came through than ever before and it did so in a much more convincing and natural way.

This last impression of real instruments in real space sounds a bit trite and we often take the whole notion for granted. Al has made remarkable progress in just the last month or two. Frankly, I was quite surprised that this fairly modest system by WBF standards, with a digital source no less, could sound so convincing.

I made two small suggestions that may or may not improve things even further: move the rack even further back toward the front wall and away from the speakers, and experiment even more with very slight speaker position changes. We did move them in toward each other a 1/2” per side and I preferred that, but Al will decide for himself to his taste. At this point, it is clear that Al is very close to having optimized his set up, and it has made all the difference to a collection of gear that is very capable.

Congratulations Al, your system is really singing. I have rarely ever heard such a natural presentation of the energy in the room. It put me in the presence of the musicians and engaged by the emotion of the music. Very well done.

One final thought for new thread topic: Is zero toe-in as controversial a subject as "pin point" imaging?

 

[MadFloyd]

Interesting post. I can’t agree that Al’s system never portrayed the sense of musicians in real space. In my opinion it was the biggest strength of his system (and room given I’ve experienced this with 3 different speakers and a variety of electronics).
I’m not sure it’s any better in that regard now.

 

[ack]

I can’t agree that Al’s system never portrayed the sense of musicians in real space

So, that's not what I read; I read "the presence of real musicians in real space had never been this convincing in Al’s system"

 

[ack]

One of our friends had commented that Al likes noise in his system

Small correction; what I said is that both you and Al "like noise", for failing to properly assess the effects of noise-reducing Shunyata cords in Ian's system, and for liking your own suspected inducement of mechanical noise into your phono chain. You are over generalizing. To me, you both like the effects of noise, in certain places, as discussed.

 

[MadFloyd]

So, that's not what I read; I read "the presence of real musicians in real space had never been this convincing in Al’s system"

Fair enough. Serves me right for responding while driving.

 

[PeterA]

Interesting post. I can’t agree that Al’s system never portrayed the sense of musicians in real space. In my opinion it was the biggest strength of his system (and room given I’ve experienced this with 3 different speakers and a variety of electronics).
I’m not sure it’s any better in that regard now.

Interesting indeed, Ian. For years I have been enjoying the sense of scale, the images, and the deep and expansive soundstage of Al's system. It was incredible, really. And yes, this carried over through different amps, speakers, and DACs. However, last night's listening experience was different. Those same images on that same stage were now much more realistic and reminiscent of what I hear live. I have been trying to describe why I think that is.

It is a difficult to describe in words, and I wish you had been there to join us, because Al and I spend a great deal of time describing and discussing what we were hearing and what might be the causes. I know that you heard his system last weekend, and that he had made these changes before then. You had mentioned to me that you thought the system was sounding really good now. Perhaps you listened for different things, or did not notice this aspect of the sound.

For me, it was immediately obvious. I have been fine tuning the set up of my own system for the last few months, and over time, I began to hear this very change in how the energy from the recording is transferred to the room through the speakers and the rest of the system. Often times, this energy never reaches the room because it is choked off by something in the system like filtering devices, power conditioners, certain footers, cables, power cords, support platforms. I heard all of these suck the life out of the music in my own system and some of those I visited. There seem to be all sorts of causes.

However, if this energy is somehow able to make it into the room, it is then either killed by absorption, or it is left to bounce all over the place and makes a mess of the sound. I discovered, with the help of ddk's advice, that the challenge is to manage this energy by careful positioning of the speakers and by how one chooses to furnish or otherwise treat the room's acoustics. Managing the energy is the key. I had a lot to learn and began my year of experiments and removing stuff from my system.

I have described in many posts how I chose to do this in my own system. Al heard my system a couple of weeks ago and I think appreciated the sense of natural resolution. Al and I learn a lot from each other and know the two systems pretty well. The most recent change Al made was to reposition his speakers so that they aim straight ahead. I had heard his system after he removed the giant panel and half of the TubeTraps from his front wall. I even heard his system briefly after I helped him to move his subwoofers closer to his speakers. Since that visit, he adjusted the setting on his subwoofer for better integration, and he straightened his speakers. That was all he did, but the sound is much improved, IMO.

I heard the change immediately. There was a new sense of life and energy to the music, and the presence of musicians on the stage in front of us was vastly improved relative to his former soundstage and imaging.. With more listening, it became clear that a few things are going on. There is more resolution, more information from the recording now in the room. Very low level information is more audible, clearer, and it is now unleashed and unrestricted (at least more so than before).

Perhaps it also has something to do with the better subwoofer integration. There is much more ambient hall information. Those great images and scale, and the width and breadth of the soundstage are still there, but now, they are more realistic sounding. There is more character to the images. I am not talking about the musicians per se, but rather the location of the origin of the sound. The quality of the sound conjures up images of musicians, but never did I "see" the instruments or the musicians. I simply heard a more realistic sound from the instruments in places, not spaces, on a virtual stage. Notes hung in the air, the silences were never empty and black. There was the sense that something was still there, even during pauses between the notes. Before these recent changes, there was more of a big empty black space devoid of energy during the pauses. It now seems like the whole scene is simply more alive. It is just more natural, less artificial, less "hifi".

So when I described the "real musicians in real space", it is because they are more representative of what I hear from live musicians in front of me at the concert hall. There is atmosphere now. Yes, I think that is it. There was no atmosphere before, just impressive images. Now those images have sprung to life and there is an atmosphere in Al's listening room where notes hang in the air, and the stage is more defined. These things are subtle, but they seem to make a big difference.

One other thing I forgot to write in my post above: Many listeners have described Al's system as having great rhythm and timing. The beat goes on. All of that is still there, but now there is also flow. This, too, is difficult to describe, but I found myself thinking less about the sound, but feeling the music more. That is a good sign and something that is also rare in systems.

Ian, I have no other way to describe it, and I think it is almost entirely because of the recent changes he has made to the set up of his system. The removal of the absorption helped a lot, but somehow, the toeing out of the speakers, just as it did in my own system, has improved the listening experience tremendously. It has taken me awhile to appreciate this change toward natural and realistic sound because of how ingrained was the whole stereo reproduction matra from all the years of reading the magazines and going to store demos. I had always wanted to be impressed by some sonic attribute. Now, I want the listening experience to be wholistic, and not made up of sonic spectacles. I think Al is now on a similar path, despite our very different preferences for gear.

EDIT: The surprising thing to me is that both Al's speaker manual and mine clearly say to point the speakers at the listener and adjust slightly for best tonal balance. IMO, the best tonal balance in both our systems has been realized with zero toe in. It is just harder to fine tune and get there.

 

[PeterA]

Small correction; what I said is that both you and Al "like noise", for failing to properly assess the effects of noise-reducing Shunyata cords in Ian's system, and for liking your own suspected inducement of mechanical noise into your phono chain. You are over generalizing. To me, you both like the effects of noise, in certain places, as discussed.

I see. I don't really know what we did that prevented a proper evaluation. Ian had three new Shunyata "NR" noise reduction power cords in his system the last time we visited. We removed them first from the two amplifiers and the sound improved, and then later, we removed the last one form the YGGY2 DAC, and the sound improved further, although the improvement was greater at the amps.

Al recently tried this same power cord in his system at the DAC and he and Ian report an improvement. I was not there. It seems the testing method of simply inserting the power cord into pieces of equipment and listening before and after was the same with different results. This tells me that the efficacy of this power cord is system dependent.

You also mentioned the steel plates I recently inserted under my rack components, which you presume ring like bells, and which replaced the noise vibration absorbing pneumatic isolation platforms, as further support for me liking noise in my system, but, as you write, that is a discussion which I refuted and we settled via email.

Germain to this thread discussion is that it seems clear to me that Al is not trying to introduce noise into his system. In fact, I think he is actively trying to rid his system of noise, and the evidence is the increased level of resolution and clarity I now hear from his system, particularly the ambiant spatial information that was just not there before with his old gear.

I understand that the recent improvements are more the result of removing absorption and speaker placement, but his gear upgrades enable that information from the recordings to reach the room.

You and VLS should try to go and hear his system again with this recent changes. I'll be curious to learn what you think.

 

[Al M.]

Thank you, Peter, for your observations. I am glad you enjoyed the system that much. In general I agree with what you wrote, in particular:

There is less of a "black" background and more of a calm, still one. We had discussed such things already on the recent thread on WBF about "black background", but now I also think that the system has made a step further in that direction. Perhaps Ian's observation from his last visit that there is more air in the sound plays into this as well.

I like what you wrote above in this respect:
"Now, that quietness and black background have been replaced by a calmness and a stillness. Where there was once nothing, there is now latent energy and life, even though there is space between the notes. There is no longer dead silence. There is life. The violin and the tenor were there, on a virtual stage, breathing, moving, performing. And that space had an energy, even during the quiet moments that breathed."

In the context, low-level information and low-level energy is also enhanced, as you point out, and thus both life of the music and resolution are increased. There is just plain more realism due to that.

***

I really think that the removal of a lot of absorption and subsequently, the change in spatial configuration of the room has made the biggest difference. Moving the subwoofers, which had been on high stands (ASC SubTraps), away from the front wall must have made the acoustic much cleaner, leaving a clearer, less turbulent path for the backwave from the monitors. In that same vein, moving back (towards the front wall) the equipment rack by 10 inches may also have helped. There is just less noise that would fight against the music.

The speakers had already had quite severe toe-out before, but with the recent changes to a cooler weather, which brought apparent changes in the room acoustics, full toe-out became desirable for tonal balance. It is not clear to me how much this change in toe-out by just a few degrees contributes to the improvements of managing musical energy that we heard. I am surprised that there is no obvious loss of natural HF energy by full toe-out, unlike on previous occasions with different room acoustics and speakers somewhat further apart. But then, I hear the same in your system.

 

[Al M.]

Small correction; what I said is that both you and Al "like noise", for failing to properly assess the effects of noise-reducing Shunyata cords in Ian's system

No, we heard what we heard, and it was negative. I don't think there was a "failure of proper assessment". Perhaps the configuration of power cords was not optimal, but I stand behind what we heard in the configuration presented. But then Ian tried one of the power cords (Delta v2 NR) in my system on the DAC, and it was obvious to both Ian and myself that there was a very good improvement, which made me curious about Shunyata again. Very curious, in fact; I already plan to audition the Denali v2. I hear what I hear, and keep an open mind either way.

To me, you both like the effects of noise, in certain places, as discussed.

Nonsense. I like low noise, and so does apparently Peter, since the last time I heard his system it was a presentation with very low noise (electronic and acoustic), as discussed on his system thread.

 

[ack]

No, we heard what we heard, and it was negative

I am still calling you guys out on this one...

But then Ian tried one of the power cords (Delta v2 NR) in my system on the DAC, and it was obvious to both Ian and myself that there was a very good improvement, which made me curious about Shunyata again. Very curious, in fact; I already plan to audition the Denali v2. I hear what I hear, and keep an open mind either way.

When you get a great noise reduction system in place - with the Denali and cords - you will likely notice that your bass is a lot more tuneful and reduced in bloat and volume; it will be more part of the rest of the audible range. That may have you turning up the subs a bit, and possibly repositioning the speakers. There will be other benefits as well. Let's see what you find out...

 

[PeterA]

I am still calling you guys out on this one...

You have a habit of doing this on my system thread too. What is the point? Isn't this hobby about enjoying one's own system?

 

[Folsom]

I build power conditioners, and I’ve sold hundreds of AC filter PCBs. I can say with total confidence every time Ive heard Shunyata’s it sounded awful.

 

[PeterA]

I build power conditioners, and I’ve sold hundreds of AC filter PCBs. I can say with total confidence every time Ive heard Shunyata’s it sounded awful.

I was recently told the same thing in a PM. I was curious to hear Ian's power cord with "noise reduction" technology. I did not like the result in that system, but remain willing to hear it in other systems. Some people really seem to like their products. I have heard an early versions of the Denali, Typhon?, and another box but can't remember the name. They did not sound good either. The owner sold them off.

 

[PeterA]

Ian, thinking more about the change in the sound of Al's system, I would say there is more atmosphere now. It changes with the recording, but before, it was generally thinner and lacked oxygen. It is now breathes air. It was like being on the surface of the moon: cold, dry, and surrounded by vast emptiness. It is now like being in the Garden of Eden: lush, moist, and alive.

 

[Al M.]

 

[Al M.]

Ian recently had brought over a Shunyata Delta NR power cable and we had tried it on my DAC. We heard a good improvement, with a nice difference on piano and violin tone in my system. The sound was less distorted and had less electronic hash. On violin that created an astonishing increase in naturalness of sound, especially on the Tchaikovsky violin concerto with Salvatore Accardo, exemplified on the solo cadenza in the first movement.

This made me think about power again, and at some point I remembered my $ 450 Tripp Lite Isolation Transformer (medical grade), which I had used until last year when I reevaluated it and perhaps too quickly decided that the sound was better without:

https://www.tripplite.com/isolator-...transformer-4-hospital-grade-outlets~IS1000HG

I started with connecting the DAC to the isolation transformer, then DAC and preamp, and finally ended up with DAC, preamp and CD transport (total load of power consumption of max 120 W on a 1000 W transformer). Unlike it had appeared to be the case on previous occasions, tonal balance seemed unaffected. Dynamics seemed unimpaired (those would take a moderate dip were I to plug in the power amp, which I once did by accident). Also the things that Peter described above, atmosphere and resolution as well as energy on the low level, seemed unchanged.

While there were no negative consequences with the isolation transformer, there were improvements, like with the Shunyata power cable. Distortion decreased further than it already had done with my recent changes, and so did electronic hash, and with that, naturalness of violin sound also increased.

Since despite not hearing a negative impact on dynamics, I still wanted to reduce transformer load, and I wanted to separate the preamp from digital source noise, at least in terms of power contamination, I decided to purchase a second identical transformer. This would also allow for additional plugging in the power supply of my reclocker without penalty ( power consumption though is low, only about 10 W max).

This new power arrangement, behind the main equipment rack, is seen above. Lowest distortion, and the best purity, subtle complexity and differentiation of timbre so far in my system. Quite amazing. Not bad for a total investment of < $ 1,000 for two transformers. That's less than the price of one Shunyata Delta NR power cord.

Dynamics are untouched with the low load on each transformer. No sonic drawbacks are audible, at least to me. I will let also Peter judge next time on 'atmosphere' and resolution as well as energy on the low level, but I think it's as good as, or better than, what he heard last time.

 

[Al M.]

In terms of power conditioning, I may be covered. My source components and preamp are fed by the isolation transformers, and my Octave RE 320 power amp uses a large shoe-box sized external capacitor bank (Super Black Box). The website states:

"The power supply capacitance increase realized via use of the Black Box or Super Black Box stabilizes current delivery and reduces the impedance interaction of the load. [...] The amplifier remains unaffected by mains variations and interferences due to the noise filtering characteristics of the capacitors."

As another larger step in improving power, I look forward to an improvement of my in-wall wiring, which is planned in the coming months.

 

[BruceD]

My own experience with the Shunyata NR cords--I went for the hype( see another fanboy forum!) and ordered them.

After, I thought serious burnin/etc--I felt I had lost some drive /dynamic contrasts--not hugely so but enough even for my old ears to pick up

I'm sure Mr Gabriel knows his market and product and his customer base is a happy one.

I just feel some of the baby is thrown out with the bathwater--but not obviously apparent to the posters above

--fair enough purely personal observations here.

I changed cabling and sold off the NR's.

YVMV

BruceD

 

[Al M.]

My own experience with the Shunyata NR cords--I went for the hype( see another fanboy forum!) and ordered them.

After, I thought serious burnin/etc--I felt I had lost some drive /dynamic contrasts--not hugely so but enough even for my old ears to pick up

I'm sure Mr Gabriel knows his market and product and his customer base is a happy one.

I just feel some of the baby is thrown out with the bathwater--but not obviously apparent to the posters above

--fair enough purely personal observations here.

I changed cabling and sold off the NR's.

YVMV

BruceD

On power amps I heard the problem that you described with the Shunyata NR cords, but on my DAC, which consumes just 35 W power, I did not. So yes, I am skeptical too, also in light of other Shunyata experiences in the past. On the DAC the NR cable did provide benefits, however, at least in my system.

The Shunyata gear is also expensive, too much so for my taste. Perhaps one day I will be convinced, and I'll keep an open mind; I certainly look forward to hear Ack's new Shunyata gear, including the Denali v2 which seems to surpass v1. Yet for right now I was looking for a more reasonably priced solution. As I describe above, I have found one that satisfies me.