I personally thought the birch horns were beautiful. Welcome @VladB, please start your own thread to show us that awesome system!
Zero Distortion: Tango Time
- Thread starter bonzo75
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Birch horns are very difficult and time consuming and labour intensive to make manually. Bill is properly trained in making wooden horns.
The composite material ones can be made multiple in a day
I have no idea, but I would be surprised if composite wasn't marketed as an upgrade and the price moved up.
Hello, Tang!
I’ve been a silent participant in the forum so far though much enjoy reading about your adventures in the audio world
I have a somewhat different model of Ralph’s FLH bass-horns - they are wider (around 4.2m in width together) but look to be a bit shallower - I think about 1.3m deep in the center.
I do not think moving them front or back a bit will make a huge impact on the low bass frequencies` Integration with the mid-bass horn, as the LF wave needs space and time to develop in any case, and its front does not end precisely at the horn’s mouth. Especially if you move around your room a bit and do not sit in a single listening position all the time.
This wide dispersion and ability to integrate acoustic space-time and keep an even acoustic energy level at various positions in the listening room (provided you are beyond the minimal HF/MF/mid-bass integration frontier) is one of the key advantages of the horn system.
Remember about the subsonic filter on your bass amps. I much prefer to keep it in “On” position as this cuts the deep bass room resonance in my house quite a bit, clearing up the LF even more.
And a pic of my old school Gamma here - they were made from exquisite birch plywood before Ralph moved to modern hi-tech composite materials
And I have my Border Patrol amp power supplies AND a CD player AND a Rubidium clock just in front of the horns
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Correct sir, moving the bass cabs back and forth will likely have no effect on most of the bass range. In some of it can change the mode/nodes of the room, but those already exist you'd just be shifting them a bit. You would not be degrading the sound unless a particular mode/node was in the highest register of the bass cabs, and even then I don't think they go high enough to perceive it as being particularly noticeable.
The bass cabs are directional as long as they are 1/4 the wavelength of what's being played, so they aren't omni-directional like other speakers are, at least not entirely (depending on frequency). You could move them anywhere within a wavelength of their highest frequency and it wouldn't be perceptible (and beyond that maybe not even if they don't play high enough) - barring mode/node issues. Tang's office is long enough that he may not ever get any mode/node interaction at the highest register of his bass cabinets - where they are indeed directional so they only could cause a mode/node in one direction.
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I hate the warmth thing. Many cartridges and cables and horns have the warmth thing. Imo, the warmth thing always come with the veil and you never get the see through air. I shy away from anything that blur my transparency. When ddk disconnected my back load subs back then he showed me the transparency. And transparency went up further with the introduction of the Lamm gears And Kuro cables. Ddk also wants me to swoosh my Kuro because he believe they are the cause of my sibilance heightening my highs. But I keep using because I haven't found any cable as transparent as these and I am no Mr.Sibilance-Free. One cannot finish his system with just transparency, he needs the musical energy and reach and differentiation and variation. These things come from the Cessaro, the Lamm and of course good vinyls. The American Sound to me is a "nothing"machine that spins vinyls really well. The Emt phono is a handy uncolored box that enable me to connect 4 phono cartridges to it. Now with the new subs. Funny... when I am way into this audio thing deep enough I tend to spend more time lookIng for faults of an equipment more than merits. People do advance their ears. And I very much agree with you that time will tell.
Tang
Huawei is very color Howie.What, are we banning Huawei too?
Hello Vlad,Hello, Tang!
I’ve been a silent participant in the forum so far though much enjoy reading about your adventures in the audio world
I have a somewhat different model of Ralph’s FLH bass-horns - they are wider (around 4.2m in width together) but look to be a bit shallower - I think about 1.3m deep in the center.
I do not think moving them front or back a bit will make a huge impact on the low bass frequencies` Integration with the mid-bass horn, as the LF wave needs space and time to develop in any case, and its front does not end precisely at the horn’s mouth. Especially if you move around your room a bit and do not sit in a single listening position all the time.
This wide dispersion and ability to integrate acoustic space-time and keep an even acoustic energy level at various positions in the listening room (provided you are beyond the minimal HF/MF/mid-bass integration frontier) is one of the key advantages of the horn system.
Remember about the subsonic filter on your bass amps. I much prefer to keep it in “On” position as this cuts the deep bass room resonance in my house quite a bit, clearing up the LF even more.
And a pic of my old school Gamma here - they were made from exquisite birch plywood before Ralph moved to modern hi-tech composite materials
And I have my Border Patrol amp power supplies AND a CD player AND a Rubidium clock just in front of the horns
View media item 399
Thank you for your kind words. Also thanks for the tuning tips. I do like the look of your birch wood horn more than my composite. Dont know if there is any difference in sound. Your McIntosh tuner is very eye catching. Pls always keep it.
Tang
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I think that when we start we are so happy that some equipment 'gives' our music 'more', then as ears (and music collection quality) improve and learn we want our equipment to stop taking so much away
I hate the warmth thing. Many cartridges and cables and horns have the warmth thing. Imo, the warmth thing always come with the veil and you never get the see through air. I shy away from anything that blur my transparency. When ddk disconnected my back load subs back then he showed me the transparency. And transparency went up further with the introduction of the Lamm gears And Kuro cables. Ddk also wants me to swoosh my Kuro because he believe they are the cause of my sibilance heightening my highs. But I keep using because I haven't found any cable as transparent as these and I am no Mr.Sibilance-Free. One cannot finish his system with just transparency, he needs the musical energy and reach and differentiation and variation. These things come from the Cessaro, the Lamm and of course good vinyls. The American Sound to me is a "nothing"machine that spins vinyls really well. The Emt phono is a handy uncolored box that enable me to connect 4 phono cartridges to it. Now with the new subs. Funny... when I am way into this audio thing deep enough I tend to spend more time lookIng for faults of an equipment more than merits. People do advance their ears. And I very much agree with you that time will tell.
Tang
it's possible, however remote, that the top of both your bass units are a good place to have your Lamm's. and that somehow hanging them or placing them behind the bass units on stands would not help.......much. those are heavy dense amps and they might be loading that top surface with just the right amount of mass to dampen it effectively......and actually improve the sound.
one way to find out without all the hassle would be to get a resonance measurement device and measure that top plate on the bass units. if they stay calm during vigorous playback then just go with it if the visuals are acceptable. but......if the resonance builds with the music, then that is being added to what you are hearing, and you are leaving musical truth on the table. an investigation is much cheaper than a guess at what might work. and maybe the result will be inconclusive......just a slight amount of effect. and there is no hurry, you are happy.
sometimes we think too much. and all the time we think too much on the forum. what else can we do? i can recall a few times when i was satisfied and many wanted me to try something. it's normal.
Unfortunately, most likely not an optimal solution...T, check with David, simpler to run a longer sc and have a nice solution, best of luck!it's possible, however remote, that the top of both your bass units are a good place to have your Lamm's. and that somehow hanging them or placing them behind the bass units on stands would not help.......much. those are heavy dense amps and they might be loading that top surface with just the right amount of mass to dampen it effectively......and actually improve the sound.
one way to find out without all the hassle would be to get a resonance measurement device and measure that top plate on the bass units. if they stay calm during vigorous playback then just go with it if the visuals are acceptable. but......if the resonance builds with the music, then that is being added to what you are hearing, and you are leaving musical truth on the table. an investigation is much cheaper than a guess at what might work. and maybe the result will be inconclusive......just a slight amount of effect. and there is no hurry, you are happy.
sometimes we think too much. and all the time we think too much on the forum. what else can we do? i can recall a few times when i was satisfied and many wanted me to try something. it's normal.
vbw,
-a
Actually most outer flat panels that make up the speaker and bass cabinet (section that are not round or bent) including the top side and bottom side are made up of two 18mm thick composite panel put together not plywood or mdf. The structure of main speakers is also made of this composite. It is quite heavier than wood. If you scratch the surface you could polish it back with fine sand paper. I guess it is something like Corian that we see using as kitchen top. Newer models of Cessaro use this composite.
S
so the ‘Sibilance issue‘may have been exacerbated in the bariolage of the chaconne with the dissonance cords
just put smartphone on top and of bass bin and run seismic apps and play some music
i agree there is a very fine line between natural warm or earthy timbre and clarity
you may find just adding deeper bass with effect your whole spectral balance as well as exciting modes more below the Schroder frequency that may not have been energised before or to lesser extent
question about the audibility of group delay below 100 hz is contentious but probably only applies if it does to bass with transient content eg plucked double bass, not organ notes
having said all of that if you get it right it can add greatly to dynamic realism and spatially
Rel used to advice turn it down till you can just hear it’s on, then turn down one or two notches further
this is just general advice but seems a good compromise
I listen to plucked double bass and chamber violin to dial it in, for transient snap , but clarity, with the sense these are wooden instruments being played, I am not familiar enough with electric bass to use that, which might be better as it covers low, mids and treble .
i should mention and correct an earlier statement that Folsom pointed out, that front loaded horns being cardioid will have less effect on room modes with positioning in the sparse mode region of room modes of the bass, but below the lowest room mode they are of no advantage of any other kind of bass system
I hate the warmth thing. Many cartridges and cables and horns have the warmth thing. Imo, the warmth thing always come with the veil and you never get the see through air. I shy away from anything that blur my transparency. When ddk disconnected my back load subs back then he showed me the transparency. And transparency went up further with the introduction of the Lamm gears And Kuro cables. Ddk also wants me to swoosh my Kuro because he believe they are the cause of my sibilance heightening my highs. But I keep using because I haven't found any cable as transparent as these and I am no Mr.Sibilance-Free. One cannot finish his system with just transparency, he needs the musical energy and reach and differentiation and variation. These things come from the Cessaro, the Lamm and of course good vinyls. The American Sound to me is a "nothing"machine that spins vinyls really well. The Emt phono is a handy uncolored box that enable me to connect 4 phono cartridges to it. Now with the new subs. Funny... when I am way into this audio thing deep enough I tend to spend more time lookIng for faults of an equipment more than merits. People do advance their ears. And I very much agree with you that time will tell.
Tang
so the ‘Sibilance issue‘may have been exacerbated in the bariolage of the chaconne with the dissonance cords
just put smartphone on top and of bass bin and run seismic apps and play some music
i agree there is a very fine line between natural warm or earthy timbre and clarity
you may find just adding deeper bass with effect your whole spectral balance as well as exciting modes more below the Schroder frequency that may not have been energised before or to lesser extent
question about the audibility of group delay below 100 hz is contentious but probably only applies if it does to bass with transient content eg plucked double bass, not organ notes
having said all of that if you get it right it can add greatly to dynamic realism and spatially
Rel used to advice turn it down till you can just hear it’s on, then turn down one or two notches further
this is just general advice but seems a good compromise
I listen to plucked double bass and chamber violin to dial it in, for transient snap , but clarity, with the sense these are wooden instruments being played, I am not familiar enough with electric bass to use that, which might be better as it covers low, mids and treble .
i should mention and correct an earlier statement that Folsom pointed out, that front loaded horns being cardioid will have less effect on room modes with positioning in the sparse mode region of room modes of the bass, but below the lowest room mode they are of no advantage of any other kind of bass system
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If nobody minds, I’ll post a couple of videos here as this topic has some Cessaro flavoring over it... if not, I’ll move them somewhere else.
The LF bass bins’ crossover is set for 115Hz, 3-order here, level 0 volume. Playing some fairly standard cd recordings.
The LF bass bins’ crossover is set for 115Hz, 3-order here, level 0 volume. Playing some fairly standard cd recordings.
And yes, generally I am bit hesitant to post video recordings - just for your listening calibration here is a video of a heavy rain and thunder from my terrace - the recording leaves much to be desired vs the real thing, indeed
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