KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[morricab]

There are extremely few sensitivity speakers that are complete sounding at uber level, and almost none of them are commercial at YG level. In US I doubt anything exists at that level in the high sensitivity world today unless the person is in the DIY community

Do you consider YG sounding at uber level, regardless of technology?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Uber level? What, you mean a guy on less than minimum wage who'll drive you and the spkrs home?

Pay him a decent tip if he helps move them.

 

[bonzo75]

Do you consider YG sounding at uber level, regardless of technology?

Commercially yes. I know you don't since they are low sensitivity and sound harsh at hifi show. If I could afford audionet stern and Heisenberg I would team it with Lampi Pacific 242 (or if I find a match as compatible at a lower price with the 242) and drop the SETs horns route

 

[Folsom]

Actually, I am. Still comfortably between 12 and 2 though. With the 160s, it was a bit higher, especially on phono which worried me. One vinyl cut was only 4 clicks from full bore.

The Luxman was even less tHan my ARC 75 SE. Ie. More capable.

To all: I’m really tired of people telling me what I should have heard or that others ears are better. Or that I need $20k preamp’s or $120k amps for these to sound good.

I have more experience with YG than most and *in my room* - and prefer very high power. I even remarked before at a show that dual sets of Audionet monos was the first time I heard Sonjas sound dynamic. I did not feel that way last year in a large room with Luxman on Haileys. Alex liked the Luxman in my room- I didn’t. Who cares?

So I’m done with this, period.

Well Keith, I'm always open to any questions. My only thing I was trying to communicate with you was about gain to see if there is something that might help you audition. For example the more gain you run the more voltage you can turn into current in the TVC, and the lower the setting the more it does that. That means it will help it drive some loads. It's just a way to give a fair chance to what's coming in your room since you don't want to pass up whatever sounds good for say the reason of two dip switches.

As with the speaker selection I expect you'll choose whatever you like with an amplifier.

P.S. a transparent buffer can be had for very little. Even if I like all MSB gear on YG, I don't think it's necessary in the least to make them sound good. I don't see any reason to spend huge money.

 

[KeithR]

Why are you throwing yr toys out of the pram? Then again, I did wonder why you hadn't contributed much, and yr response here is the reason.

If you don't want people to contribute to yr spkrs thread, then don't start a spkrs thread. If you want people to just agree w you, then maybe Whats Best Soviet Forum c.1984 would be a better place to post.

Marc, I accepted a big job and started today- my time has been limited. I think it’s really hard to say after 119 pages that I’m a forum totalitarian. I’ve had to contain the thread on several occasions from spooling into pointlessness and this is one of those times. There has been a lot of misinformation as well.

 

[KeithR]

Well Keith, I'm always open to any questions. My only thing I was trying to communicate with you was about gain to see if there is something that might help you audition. For example the more gain you run the more voltage you can turn into current in the TVC, and the lower the setting the more it does that. That means it will help it drive some loads. It's just a way to give a fair chance to what's coming in your room since you don't want to pass up whatever sounds good for say the reason of two dip switches.

As with the speaker selection I expect you'll choose whatever you like with an amplifier.
.

I appreciated your comments on the phono and why I responded separately to your post. I tried 72db gain on the Octave, but found the noise floor too high so backed off to 68db. (In my old system)

I should have flipped the 6db switch on the TVC off and tried it. I don’t recall it making a sonic difference before but thanks for the idea.

To @Ron Resnick on the ARCs, I was searching for top end which was super subdued and even tried toeing in the speakers more. It also measured this way on a simple FFT with a large depression between 1khz and 8khz. We also switched from 8 ohm taps and I was getting distortion on the ARCs into 4 ohms on some crescendo-y stuff which was really weird. I hit 160watts on the meters on my Tron soundtrack at 90s dB levels. We finally switched to the Ref75SE and the treble was better but still not normal. Because of these anomalies I asked to try the Luxman.

 

[Folsom]

160 watts, wow, that Tron soundtrack must be impressive.

Noise floor? You mean vinyl goodness? It's a good thing you've got a DAC now too, to help make a decision.

 

[KeithR]

Yup, lots of full spectrum sound in Daft Punks soundtrack. Try “Fall” and crank it up. I have no idea how calibrated the meter is however.

 

[morricab]

I appreciated your comments on the phono and why I responded separately to your post. I tried 72db gain on the Octave, but found the noise floor too high so backed off to 68db. (In my old system)

I should have flipped the 6db switch on the TVC off and tried it. I don’t recall it making a sonic difference before but thanks for the idea.

To @Ron Resnick on the ARCs, I was searching for top end which was super subdued and even tried toeing in the speakers more. It also measured this way on a simple FFT with a large depression between 1khz and 8khz. We also switched from 8 ohm taps and I was getting distortion on the ARCs into 4 ohms on some crescendo-y stuff which was really weird. I hit 160watts on the meters on my Tron soundtrack at 90s dB levels. We finally switched to the Ref75SE and the treble was better but still not normal. Because of these anomalies I asked to try the Luxman.

160 watts and only in the 90s? If your YGs are really more like 84db (like Carmel 2 in Stereophile) then:
1 watt= 84db for one speaker...a pair...add 3db but we’ll stick with worst case
2=87
4=90
8=93
16=96
32=99
64=102
128=105
256=108

At 160 watts, you should have been over 100db, which suggests either the meters were way off, the speaker is even less sensitive OR thermal compression has well and good set in and that is why s huge amount of power is needed in order to get louder without the amp clipping.

 

[christoph]

Marc, I accepted a big job and started today- my time has been limited. I think it’s really hard to say after 119 pages that I’m a forum totalitarian. I’ve had to contain the thread on several occasions from spooling into pointlessness and this is one of those times. There has been a lot of misinformation as well.

Congrats on the new job

 

[213Cobra]

160 watts and only in the 90s? If your YGs are really more like 84db (like Carmel 2 in Stereophile) then:
1 watt= 84db for one speaker...a pair...add 3db but we’ll stick with worst case
2=87
4=90
8=93
16=96
32=99
64=102
128=105
256=108

At 160 watts, you should have been over 100db, which suggests either the meters were way off, the speaker is even less sensitive OR thermal compression has well and good set in and that is why s huge amount of power is needed in order to get louder without the amp clipping.

Not quite. The efficiency ratings are @ 1 meter measurement distance. The point of measurement via iPhone app was closer to 3 meters, so measured SPL was lower for power output than implied by calculating db output from the speaker's 1w efficiency reference. I have no idea whether the ARC meters accurately display power output.

The ARC was clearly sluggish and burdened by the YG, and not only at high SPLs. At modest SPL and output it still sounded congested, soft on the top, poor in bass response and definition, and it smeared details on crescendo of any scale, as well as when trying to process complex music with many simultaneous transient events. There was nothing to admire about the combination, especially in light of the speakers and amps having a combined retail price of ~$78,000. This fact seems overlooked in this thread. The sound we were getting from that combination would not have been suitable for $5,000 worth of well-chosen speakers + amplification. The Luxman was better but still not redeeming. Neither provided a sufficient baseline for evaluating whether the YGs would be viable for Keith, his room, and perceived value for his wallet. He got to his decision through other means, as described.

With the m2tech class D amps, the YG and the system could be evaluated top to bottom for viability, at a quality level that opened the door to confidence that a commensurate amp can be found for the YG. What was the biggest specifications difference? 440w instead of 75, 160 or 300. Plus what should have been the most difficult load for the MSB+TVC to drive, input impedance of 20kOhms instead of ~40kOhms, 200kOhms or 300kOhms.

Phil

 

[morricab]

Not quite. The efficiency ratings are @ 1 meter measurement distance. The point of measurement via iPhone app was closer to 3 meters, so measured SPL was lower for power output than implied by calculating db output from the speaker's 1w efficiency reference. I have no idea whether the ARC meters accurately display power output.

The ARC was clearly sluggish and burdened by the YG, and not only at high SPLs. At modest SPL and output it still sounded congested, soft on the top, poor in bass response and definition, and it smeared details on crescendo of any scale, as well as when trying to process complex music with many simultaneous transient events. There was nothing to admire about the combination, especially in light of the speakers and amps having a combined retail price of ~$78,000. This fact seems overlooked in this thread. The sound we were getting from that combination would not have been suitable for $5,000 worth of well-chosen speakers + amplification. The Luxman was better but still not redeeming. Neither provided a sufficient baseline for evaluating whether the YGs would be viable for Keith, his room, and perceived value for his wallet. He got to his decision through other means, as described.

With the m2tech class D amps, the YG and the system could be evaluated top to bottom for viability, at a quality level that opened the door to confidence that a commensurate amp can be found for the YG. What was the biggest specifications difference? 440w instead of 75, 160 or 300. Plus what should have been the most difficult load for the MSB+TVC to drive, input impedance of 20kOhms instead of ~40kOhms, 200kOhms or 300kOhms.

Phil

That's why I stuck with the sensitivity of a single speaker because the drop at distance is similar to the gain of having a pair of speakers...works out similarly. If it was a line source though then the drop is less (I was only getting about 1 db drop with my Acoustats at 3.5 meters).

 

[KeithR]

Well, the Ampzillas and a new outlet have landed. Should have some impressions after the weekend and 48 hours of break-in...

 

[KeithR]

 

[KeithR]

so interesting things popped up when the Ampzillas were inserted - they actually blew a fuse within 10 minutes playing music. Blew several more when lifting grounds with no signal even. Certain bassy music also showed faint flashes of the peak LED lights.

It appears to stem from an outlet to the right of the fireplace I have used for monoblocks. After a sack of fuses, going through several pointers from @Folsom including checking polarity, taking out the +6 gain on the TVC, lifting grounds, moving all to the "left" outlet, and even taking the TVC out of the chain and only using the MSB - finally came to some interesting conclusions.

first, the outlets are on different circuits and don't have grounds. although @213Cobra checked polarity and ground with an ifi product and both outlets yielded the same results. however, putting everything on a power strip to the "left" outlet - there hasn't been a blown fuse since. so these two circuits clearly don't play nice with each other. lifting the grounds now doesn't blow fuses unlike the original setup.

i think this is why the other fully balanced amp we tried - the ARC Ref 160- was having some squirrelly issues as noted above. the Luxman is not fully balanced and was on the left outlet to begin with as a stereo amp. i should also note that there was no difference between MSB and TVC as preamp from a peak power point of view.

what I can say about the Ampzillas after 48 hours of run-in is that they don't congest on crescendos and seem to have quite a bit of power in reserve - even though the lights flash once in a while. they have really opened up since inserted and the top end is quite nice, the midrange tonally warm and bass that is full but not slow. in short, they seem to drive the speaker quite well and sound promising. I won't make full judgment until 100-200 hours or so is on them as they continue to change.

i am going to have a conversation with the manufacturer tomorrow about the sensitivity of the peak light - we are assuming its a milli-second type soft clip and nothing harmful. what this all leads me to (still) believe is: YG loves power.

 

[andromedaaudio]

And what about the tonal balance as compared to your previous speakers.
I know from the info they give out that they are serious in aiming for a neutral flat response of their speakers
Sometimes people expirience flat as a bit hot (tweeter).
I ve never heard YG s iirc hope to hear them at munich

 

[Ron Resnick]

Phil (213Cobra) was right. Ampzilla 2000 Mk. II totally works!

I heard no brightness, no sibilance; it is not typical SS-sounding. I prefer this $5,500 amp over the Audionet amps GTT demoed with for several years. (I do not know what Bill Parish is driving his YGs with now.)

(In contrast I thought the class D amps Phil had Keith try drove the speakers properly, but I really did not like the way they sounded. To my ears those class D amps on the Haley 2s sounded thin and sterile -- they turned the system into the sound of early digital.)

So far the Ampzilla 2000 II is not the last word in transparency, but maybe more break-in is required.

I like spending Keith's money as much as anyone, so I very much would like him to try the Lamm M2.2 hybrid amps. But Keith literally could just keep these Ampzillas. They definitely are a good and valid benchmark against which to compare other amps in Keith's system.

Whichever amp Keith decides is the perfect amp sonically, I would encourage him to get four of them. Even with 540 watts into 4 ohms the peak LEDs were lighting up. I am not saying I would even be able to hear a difference with four amplifiers, but, for me personally, purely psychologically and purely theoretically, I like the idea of extra headroom for effortlessness. Clearly to me YGs needs tons of power and current

These Ampzilla 2000 IIs are an excellent foundation for Keith's system. They totally work in all respects. They show that the slight risk Keith took in buying speakers before he actually found an amp he enjoyed driving them with was well-taken.

Overall the system is a big step up, I think, from the Devores. I didn't realize the Haley 2s would afford as big as sound as they do.

Now I think Keith's system may be "room limited," which is what I think we all should be striving for. This is what I hope to achieve with my system someday.

By "room limited" I mean that the biggest single improvement in sound reproduction Keith could achieve at this point probably would come not from a new component but from a larger room in which he could pull the speakers further away from the front wall. This is great, because if he moves into an even larger house someday his current system will adapt beautifully.

Bravo, Keith, and congratulations! It has been a long, and sometimes frustrating, process, I know. But you have made great decisions, and you now have a system you can be happy with for a very long time and which still gives you the opportunity to tailor further the sound towards whatever is your ideal.

 

[Folsom]

Well, if Keith can get a fresh romex or two run over to that wall then the peak light might go away when the system isn't floating without ground while running on balanced IC's.

The Ampzillas claim they can drive anything, and I suspect that is true. It's nice that things are going well! They certainly are a bargain for what they can offer at the price point.

 

[Barry2013]

so interesting things popped up when the Ampzillas were inserted - they actually blew a fuse within 10 minutes playing music. Blew several more when lifting grounds with no signal even. Certain bassy music also showed faint flashes of the peak LED lights.

It appears to stem from an outlet to the right of the fireplace I have used for monoblocks. After a sack of fuses, going through several pointers from @Folsom including checking polarity, taking out the +6 gain on the TVC, lifting grounds, moving all to the "left" outlet, and even taking the TVC out of the chain and only using the MSB - finally came to some interesting conclusions.

first, the outlets are on different circuits and don't have grounds. although @213Cobra checked polarity and ground with an ifi product and both outlets yielded the same results. however, putting everything on a power strip to the "left" outlet - there hasn't been a blown fuse since. so these two circuits clearly don't play nice with each other. lifting the grounds now doesn't blow fuses unlike the original setup.

i think this is why the other fully balanced amp we tried - the ARC Ref 160- was having some squirrelly issues as noted above. the Luxman is not fully balanced and was on the left outlet to begin with as a stereo amp. i should also note that there was no difference between MSB and TVC as preamp from a peak power point of view.

what I can say about the Ampzillas after 48 hours of run-in is that they don't congest on crescendos and seem to have quite a bit of power in reserve - even though the lights flash once in a while. they have really opened up since inserted and the top end is quite nice, the midrange tonally warm and bass that is full but not slow. in short, they seem to drive the speaker quite well and sound promising. I won't make full judgment until 100-200 hours or so is on them as they continue to change.

i am going to have a conversation with the manufacturer tomorrow about the sensitivity of the peak light - we are assuming its a milli-second type soft clip and nothing harmful. what this all leads me to (still) believe is: YG loves power.

Your unhappy experiences with the earlier amps puzzled me .
The more I thought about it the more I suspected the problems were not the amplifiers or the speakers, but some other then unexplained problems which have now emerged with the substitution of the Ampzillas.
It may well be that you will be happy with the Ampzillas but the root problem with the mains remains and looks likely to be a continuing vulnerability if not addressed.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Your unhappy experiences with the earlier amps puzzled me .
The more I thought about it the more I suspected the problems were not the amplifiers or the speakers, but some other then unexplained problems which have now emerged with the substitution of the Ampzillas.
It may well be that you will be happy with the Ampzillas but the root problem with the mains remains and looks likely to be a continuing vulnerability if not addressed.

I defer to Keith, but I don't think the earlier problems with the amplifiers were caused by this problem outlet. I think the problem outlet just has some crappy wiring or some grounding problem, maybe because it is paralleled from some outdoor AC connection.

For example, I think the Luxman was plugged only into the outlet which Keith knows is working properly.