"How can we ever truly know if we are hearing exactly what is on the recording?"

Al M.

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And, lets not forget, wrt vinyl, advances in cartridges and stylus only seem to dig more and more out of the grooves, so we can’t even really know what all is there to begin with.

That is a good point, and extends not just to vinyl. I have often discussed the issue with audiophile friends where we marveled at what we heard from top systems with their fantastic resolution. We concluded that, certainly when it comes to older recordings, probably the recording engineers did not even know what is on the recording because they did not have the equipment and speakers to even hear in the studio just how much was captured, compared to the enormous resolution that can be heard on modern systems.

If that is the case, how can you even talk about the original "intent" of the recording?
 
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thedudeabides

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It's impossible. And the OP is absolutely correct, it is not a useful question. It's all pure speculation.
 
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bonzo75

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That is a good point, and extends not just to vinyl. I have often discussed the issue with audiophile friends where we marveled at what we heard from top systems with their fantastic resolution. We concluded that, certainly when it comes to older recordings, probably the recording engineers did not even know what is on the recording because they did not have the equipment and speakers to even hear in the studio just how much was captured, compared to the enormous resolution that can be heard on modern systems.

If that is the case, how can you even talk about the original "intent" of the recording?

So can you having this expertise with your audiophile friends please enlighten us on what exactly was the gear they used? And names of the engineers who couldn't hear much on that gear?
 

morricab

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So can you having this expertise with your audiophile friends please enlighten us on what exactly was the gear they used? And names of the engineers who couldn't hear much on that gear?
Yeah, you know some crap like old ALTEC or Tannoy monitors...and some tube amps ;)
 
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andromedaaudio

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How can we ever truly know if we are hearing exactly what is on the recording?"

Here is the topic question , one talk about this subject for another 1000 years of course , the answer simple is buy a digital/ analogue recorder record something and play it back over your system , thats if you really want to know off course .
Share it with us please
But i assume thats to much work for most so we can keep talking , lol
 

stehno

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How can we be sure...?
How can we be sure there is a god or that we are not just a figment of our imaginations?
Of course we can never be sure.
It is a leap of faith. ...

Greg, last time I checked there still are only 4 distinct possibilities for the existence of the universe.

1. It's always been there.
2. It came from nothing.
3. It doesn't really exist and is just a figment of our imagination.
4. Something or someone infinitely more powerful and outside of the universe created it.

Since this thread is not about religious or metaphysical matters, I'll just say that the answer cannot be #3 because we can predict with great accuracy future events such as the seasons, solstices, Haley's comet, eclipses, the Chiefs winning the Super Bowl, etc.

Ok, one more. It cannot be #2 because from nothing nothing comes. Thus leaving only #1 and #2 as distinct possibilities.

Ok, just one more hint. Let's say Mike Lavigne had a new visitor in his listening room and the visitor exclaimed, "Wow!!! What a beautiful playback system and the sound is to die for. Who made this beautifully intricate playback system?" and Mike responded, "Nobody." :)

But I think the point to consider here is that such things do not necessarily require a leap of faith. Some things can be deduced with logic, experience, understanding, experimentation, performing due diligence, etc. In fact and to the contrary, too many time I find what the science-minded types have to say in audio and elsewhere requires too much faith for me to muster.
 
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Solypsa

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If speaking of unamplified performances, recorded in all analog, 'back in the day', it's true the engineers didn't have replay systems with ultra wide bandwidth. They did, as a rule, sit there and hear the musicians. They then tried to convey the music as well as they could. It worked.

I think it is an overstatement to say they didn't know what was on the tape...because all that info is what 'makes the music' even if it is not mentally processed in all its granular detail.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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honestly i think more modern pro audio guys might get more surprised by what analog can capture, that their digital references don't really get. this is more in degrees of nuance than anything absolute.

i recall my in-room session with Winston Ma when i had 2 Pro Audio guys and we were recording a direct-to-disc pressing off my Rockport TT for a digital release. according to what they said, they had not previously been exposed to really high end vinyl, and were surprised their ADC's could not fully capture the nuance of the vinyl playback. the implications of such for using digital to record music with are profound.

this is just an anecdote, and it could have been so much shining me on to make me feel good, but it seemed they were genuinely surprised. when i hear comments like 'same as the mic feed' as far as digital, i roll my eyes. not that analog is perfect, or any medium gets everything. until you hear what's missing, you never knew to listen for it.
 
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Gregadd

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Brilliant existentiallist argument. Of course the problem with so many proofs preumes the conclusion.

If therethere was no measurable distortion it must be identical. If only that were true.
 

Atmasphere

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Hm.

I had to tackle this problem decades ago when I started Atma-Sphere. But I knew lots of musicians so I was able to set up recorders, direct mic feeds and also compare to the live performance.

This led me to doing on location recordings with my Ampex 351-2 and trusty Neumann microphones (or Phillips condensors).

Eventually I made a recording of Canto General by Mikas Theodorakis. This was done at a local college in their auditorium, which was quite large, in which the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra and Minnesota Orchestra have commonly given shows. Since I knew the space well prior to doing the recording I was able to work with the producer of the performance to get things right. In addition, the performers rehearsed in the space for a week, since there were to be multiple performances including the recording session and a more public performance taped by PBS.

So I had a lot of opportunity to try different recording schemes. But the local NPR affilliate had already worked out the ideal microphone placement (hung from the overhead cloud ceiling) so I worked mostly on the recording side, using Stax and some regular headphones as well as a small monitor system powered by my amps.

So I got to know this recording pretty well. Its gone to both LP (which sold out due to a performance on an NPR affiliate in New York) and CD. Because I was there I know what its supposed to sound like. With it I can tell if a system has tonality problems, isn't playing the bass right and so on.

IME this answers the question of this thread. But it means you all have to work on your own recordings and do your best to bring them to a format you can play easily.

Since recording Canto I bought an LP mastering lathe with a cutterhead and mastering electronics. It took years to refurbish but I've mastered LPs which have then been pressed. You can't tell from those LPs how one way or the other about how they sound, unless you were at the original recording session. So mastering engineers are no more privy to the artist's intent than regular audiophiles. I did learn though that the LP format has a lot more capabilities than most people think and the actual specs can surprise many in the digital camp. But that's another topic.
 

Kcin

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Hm.

I had to tackle this problem decades ago when I started Atma-Sphere. But I knew lots of musicians so I was able to set up recorders, direct mic feeds and also compare to the live performance.

This led me to doing on location recordings with my Ampex 351-2 and trusty Neumann microphones (or Phillips condensors).

Eventually I made a recording of Canto General by Mikas Theodorakis. This was done at a local college in their auditorium, which was quite large, in which the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra and Minnesota Orchestra have commonly given shows. Since I knew the space well prior to doing the recording I was able to work with the producer of the performance to get things right. In addition, the performers rehearsed in the space for a week, since there were to be multiple performances including the recording session and a more public performance taped by PBS.

So I had a lot of opportunity to try different recording schemes. But the local NPR affilliate had already worked out the ideal microphone placement (hung from the overhead cloud ceiling) so I worked mostly on the recording side, using Stax and some regular headphones as well as a small monitor system powered by my amps.

So I got to know this recording pretty well. Its gone to both LP (which sold out due to a performance on an NPR affiliate in New York) and CD. Because I was there I know what its supposed to sound like. With it I can tell if a system has tonality problems, isn't playing the bass right and so on.

IME this answers the question of this thread. But it means you all have to work on your own recordings and do your best to bring them to a format you can play easily.

Since recording Canto I bought an LP mastering lathe with a cutterhead and mastering electronics. It took years to refurbish but I've mastered LPs which have then been pressed. You can't tell from those LPs how one way or the other about how they sound, unless you were at the original recording session. So mastering engineers are no more privy to the artist's intent than regular audiophiles. I did learn though that the LP format has a lot more capabilities than most people think and the actual specs can surprise many in the digital camp. But that's another topic.

@Atmasphere

Very interesting and makes total sense to understand the recording vs. the event. Can you comment further - in another thread if you have the time - on the capabilities of vinyl if optimized versus digital in 2020 based on your experience?

Thanks!
 

stehno

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....

If therethere was no measurable distortion it must be identical. If only that were true.

Talk about cher leaps of faith. :) By no means did I imply such a thing. For one, that would be presuming I put stock in measurements when to the best of my knowledge many know not what they measure nor how to measure it. I'm sticking with due diligence.
 

NorthStar

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If the turntables and everything related to them in tandem keep improving we might never find out what truly was there in all those recordings we have been playing for the last sixty-seventy years ...

What a beautiful audiophile journey ... till death separates us apart and then some more ... to our grandchildren to search for what might be in them recordings long time after we're long gone.

Music never dies, amen. The Absolute recordings might never be heard in all their true full glory till the next million years, minimum.

If Jimi Hendrix was still alive what would he say?
 

Gregadd

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Ok so we have done this before.
Let us assume we have all the musoc in the same room.
 
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Gregadd

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Conversions
Mucic to microphone.
Microphone to master
Master to medium.
Medium to mass copies
Ccpiies to média player
Media playwr to amplifier
Amplifier to speake
Speaker to room/ear/brain
Now even if the conversions were perfect and the same person was present for each conversion and the stereo construct was perfect , we will not know if wat hear is a perfect reproduction of the original recording.
Yes i know i left out cables.
 

Hi-FiGuy

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Didn't Gary do this comparisons with his Dragons and a live orchestra and also live jazz at his place?
 

NorthStar

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Didn't Gary do this comparisons with his Dragons and a live orchestra and also live jazz at his place?

What did he say, what was his conclusion, did he find the answer?
Can you locate the thread where this important piece of information might illuminate us all?
 

tima

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Eventually I made a recording of Canto General by Mikas Theodorakis. This was done at a local college in their auditorium, which was quite large, in which the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra and Minnesota Orchestra have commonly given shows. Since I knew the space well prior to doing the recording I was able to work with the producer of the performance to get things right. In addition, the performers rehearsed in the space for a week, since there were to be multiple performances including the recording session and a more public performance taped by PBS.

Canto General Atma Sphere 3-001 .jpg

Atma-Sphere 3-001 (2xLP)
 
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Al M.

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honestly i think more modern pro audio guys might get more surprised by what analog can capture, that their digital references don't really get. this is more in degrees of nuance than anything absolute.

i recall my in-room session with Winston Ma when i had 2 Pro Audio guys and we were recording a direct-to-disc pressing off my Rockport TT for a digital release. according to what they said, they had not previously been exposed to really high end vinyl, and were surprised their ADC's could not fully capture the nuance of the vinyl playback. the implications of such for using digital to record music with are profound.

this is just an anecdote, and it could have been so much shining me on to make me feel good, but it seemed they were genuinely surprised. when i hear comments like 'same as the mic feed' as far as digital, i roll my eyes. not that analog is perfect, or any medium gets everything. until you hear what's missing, you never knew to listen for it.

Mike, of course you have a loss upon conversion, and that holds for analog conversion as much as for the digital conversion that you described.

The more interesting question is what would happen if you record from the same microphone feed
a) to analog tape and from there make a vinyl pressing, and then play the LP on one of your turntables
b) to a high quality ADC and play back the digital recording on your MSB Select II DAC
Which of these chains then would retain more information? That would be interesting to find out.

A missing link in your story is also the quality of the DAC used at the time. Obviously you cannot aurally judge the quality of an ADC output without playing back the result through a DAC. I don't know how recent the event was, but if the DAC used was not your MSB Select II, you have a problem right there.
 

tima

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The more interesting question is what would happen if you record from the same microphone feed
a) to analog tape and from there make a vinyl pressing, and then play the LP on one of your turntables
b) to a high quality ADC and play back the digital recording on your MSB Select II DAC
Which of these chains then would retain more information? That would be interesting to find out.

c) by-pass tape and go direct to analog disk master/lacquer and from there make a vinyl pressing, and then play the LP on one of your turntables . ??
 
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