To Loom or Not to Loom?

[microstrip]

Is it possible that some of the distortions introduced by cables are similar to those of amps in terms of adding even/uneven harmonics? Extremely small amounts of added harmonics can change the sound character, see also these experiments by Bob Katz:

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-25-adventures-distortion

Of course, harmonics are also frequency related, even though they may not show up in traditional frequency measurements.

Interesting bit from the article:

The changes introduced by cables are not measurable using standard analyzers and are orders of magnitude lower than those existing in any harmonic distortion studies carried so far. The only reference I have ever seen on this subject was an interview by Van den Hul, who referred to analyzers being able to dig in detail bellow -140 dB.

Unfortunately we can not mix cables with amplfiers in analysis - they are too different. Believe me - the knowledge about signal cables is based on empirical observation, scientifically cables are voodoo. Should we expect that the electrons of gold enhance the second harmonic?

This also flies in the face of claims that SS amps are a priori more neutral and transparent sounding than tube amps, and their reproduction comes 'closer to master tape'. Yes, there are colored sounding tube amps, but there are also colored sounding SS amps. even though the colorations of SS amps may have a very different character (c.f. above quote from the article). And there are quite neutral and transparent sounding tube amps just as there are quite neutral and transparent sounding SS amps (note that I use the adjective 'quite', there is no absolute neutrality or transparency).

We can always live on the exceptions, but my comments addressed the best or close to it of each class in the parameters we were addressing.

BTW, the article you refer is confusing, very limited - it refers just to headphone listening - and anything but conclusive. IMHO fun headphone stuff.

 

[DaveC]

We can have another perspective - the strictly neutral sound reproduction process enhances brightness, grain, accentuated leading edges, or harshness. Just look at what people report when commenting on live versus sound reproduction in other threads. Good cables help suppressing them, keeping a balanced sound ...

Fatigue is surely a typical sin of systems - but uninteresting, blend sound is also usual. Anyway it is fantastic how sensitive we can be to the extremely small differences in cables.

The only loom of cables I own having gold is the Crystal Dreamline. And yes, as you refer, it adds some very welcome warmth to sound in many systems!

Sure, many choose cables that add warmth... especially owners of systems with SS amps and hard-membrane drivers. It comes at the expense of resolution though. This is kind of the issue with modern high-resolution speaker drivers... they do little to hide issues vs warmer sounding vintage drivers and often this is bad enough they are far from natural sounding, where many times a paper coned driver will sound more natural, more realistic. These systems often do use cables to try to compensate but imo you're probably better off with tube amplification or more forgiving drivers. Warm sounding cables can really kill a system and make it sound very boring. I've heard systems completely transform from boring and usual to something special just with better cables.

That said pretty much all good cables will err on the side of warmth, even Wireworld Platinum and high end Siltech, who both use UPOCC silver, use rectangular conductors with much heavier gauge than is needed to add warmth and smoothness. AFAIK they both use 17g UPOCC silver for interconnect cables. I use UPOCC silver/gold which achieves a similar goal, but have 2 levels of cable... a touch of gold or a little more gold... in order to fit the tonal requirements of the system.

 

[still-one]

Can we know what type are the clock and the AES/EBU cables?

I am using Transparent clock and AES/EBU on my Vivaldi stack. The only cables that are Shunyata are the power cords.

 

[DaveC]

Is it possible that some of the distortions introduced by cables are similar to those of amps in terms of adding even/uneven harmonics? Extremely small amounts of added harmonics can change the sound character, see also these experiments by Bob Katz:

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-25-adventures-distortion

Of course, harmonics are also frequency related, even though they may not show up in traditional frequency measurements.

I'm just guessing here but I don't think so. Artifacts and whatever kind of distortion added by cables are worse vs harmonic distortion. For example the warmth added by copper reduces resolution more than the harmonic distortion added by tubes.

This is why I suggest using neutral cables and adjusting other parts of the system, but that seems ludicrous to many, I know. Personally, I'd start with clean AC power and neutral sounding cables, they are like the backbone and circulatory system of an audio system. You can get poor results with an otherwise good system if you have dirty power and poor cables. Add in poor quality electronics and/or poor passive crossovers and acoustics and you get a dull, ordinary system that is unfortunately all too common.

 

[Al M.]

I'm just guessing here but I don't think so. Artifacts and whatever kind of distortion added by cables are worse vs harmonic distortion. For example the warmth added by copper reduces resolution more than the harmonic distortion added by tubes.

This is why I suggest using neutral cables and adjusting other parts of the system, but that seems ludicrous to many, I know.

I agree on that approach, it's not ludicrous but logical if you think about it. Room acoustics are another parameter that is adjustable to taste without loss of resolution, and often proper room treatment even increases resolution because it tames blurring reflections.

 

[awsmone]

Interesting question and discussion

Although the article below is not comprehensive it does suggest that interactions between components via different cables might be measurable especially speaker cables which others have raised

https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-cable-differences-3134603

And what do we mean by “warmth” ?

 

[awsmone]

Below is the transfer function of 4 speaker cables/wire

https://www.stereophile.com/content/minnesota-audio-society-conducts-cable-comparison-tests-0

 

[Sablon Audio]

A couple of members have prodded me to post my thoughts on this thread, so here goes now that the busy week is behind me. Obviously, I have a commercial interest and will try to not explicitly talk my own book but feel free to take it with a handful of salt etc......

To get the first question out of the way, it should come as little surprise that a cable maker might choose to use a full loom of their own products. To do so is both practical and helpful for ongoing product development. So far, so good but why should others take this approach, or indeed why might they choose not to do so?!?

Taking a step back, I feel it would first be helpful to rationalise on what qualities might reasonably be expected from any hifi product and, hence, desirable from a cable loom. “A straight wire with gain” was a suggestion proffered many decades ago yet continues to serve us well today. Any piece of hifi gear should pass through the musical signal with minimal losses or adulteration. It isn’t called ‘high fidelity’ without reason. But what qualities should this deliver in practice?

Transparency would seem an obvious virtue and this is something which imo one can never have too much of. If you don’t like what you’re hearing, then there is likely a shortcoming elsewhere being revealed. Whilst a cable can’t add any information, it should certainly aim to lose as little as possible. All those little low-level details and textural elements recreate the ambiance of a recording and help bring the music to life.

Neutrality has been suggested by others and this quality is often used in the context of tonal presentation (warm / bright etc) but can also be applied to the evenness of distribution across the frequency range. The absence of colouration is a critical part of achieving this and should ideally be innate to the wire and plugs rather than achieved by offsetting opposing colourations.

At this point, we reach a fork in the road. Those who want to use cables to tune out the innate characteristics of their systems are actively seeking a colouration and can turn off here. Those souls seeking unadulterated high fidelity can carry on straight for a while longer until they reach the next junction on ‘loom highway’.

Can your prospective cable supplier actually supply all the cable types you need? Everybody needs power / interconnect / speaker cables but what about usb / spdif / lan / tonearm / dc etc? And, if so, do all their product range offer similar levels of performance? If we can tick these boxes, you have a sensible basis for considering a full cabling loom from them. But why should you consider this?

An underlying assumption about a single-brand cabling loom which is genuinely transparent and neutral, is that the various cables have been developed to operate in harmony with each other. Presupposing their designs exhibit ‘regular' electrical parameters, this confers an encouraging level of confidence that the pairing will be successful for most users, both electrically and aesthetically. Also in concentrating more business with a single supplier, you should be able to secure more attractive pricing and develop a deeper relationship for future advice / support etc.

Now to look at things from the opposing perspective; why might one not consider a single brand loom?

The ‘cables as tuning devices’ tribe have already been mentioned above and it is implicit that they will source from different suppliers.

I can also see how inertia might be a significant factor for many who have gathered a collection of cables over their ‘career’ and would sooner avoid the hassle of change. Products do however evolve over time - I know this first hand from developing my own range - and it may now be possible to get something better for less than the resale value of what you already have.

Then there are those who are (rightly imo) suspicious of industry pricing practices, which are often at their worst in the cable segment where list prices can be extravagant yet dealer cost might be as low as 25%. Some audiophiles may choose to bide their time and wait to buy a few years later on the used market, though it will take quite some patience to put together a complete loom with this approach. Such is the lot of the Veblen goods worshipper on a budget!

To conclude, there are worthwhile objective reasons to pursue a complete single brand loom but also understandable, more behavioural and circumstantial, reasons why people often don’t.

 

[Steve Williams]

I enjoyed reading that. Thank you for your thoughts. In my system I have always used a full loom of the identical cable and have never regretted it

 

[JackD201]

I'm a loomer too. I never see cables as adding anything to the signal (except noise), only taking things away. If presented with a cable that passes more information through in a balanced fashion then my tendency is to go for the entire family. Moreover, I tend to go with whole families of electronics too so using cables to match components is not nearly as necessary than if I did a lot of mixing and matching. My proclivity is to voice my system at the front and back ends. I just find it simpler and thus more successful and efficient.

 

[Steve Williams]

I'm a loomer too. I never see cables as adding anything to the signal (except noise), only taking things away. If presented with a cable that passes more information through in a balanced fashion then my tendency is to go for the entire family. Moreover, I tend to go with whole families of electronics too so using cables to match components is not nearly as necessary than if I did a lot of mixing and matching. My proclivity is to voice my system at the front and back ends. I just find it simpler and thus more successful and efficient.

I totally agree as my electronics are a "full loom" as well

 

[still-one]

I read posts where individuals prefer cables that do nothing. This is the antithesis of what I seek in a cable or for that matter any audio component I purchase. I have A/B'd every component and piece of gear in my set-up (save for the speakers) and the one that gets me closer to what I am looking for stays. I have no desire to pay for something that does nothing.

I don't understand why posters think that cables should be treated different than any other product in your system. Some prefer tubes to solid state and it is unlikely that is due to tubes "doing nothing". Even then many roll their tubes. Again is that because the new tubes are closer to passing some idea of the "input signal"? Who chooses a DAC because if does nothing to the signal?

 

[Steve Williams]

jim

So what you are saying is you like some coloration to your sound?

 

[bonzo75]

jim

So what you are saying is you like some coloration to your sound?

Lamms, like all amps, are colored. As are all carts. So just as one rolls carts and amps, one can roll cables. Depends what the itch to try is.

Invariably you end up desiring something more in your system and that has to be added. Cables are an option. The perfect neutral and balanced system does not exist

 

[Sablon Audio]

On the subject of colouration, I would be the first to acknowledge that every component has its own ‘personality’. Even dfferent types of water have their own tastes. It is only when this character becomes easily noticeable or dominant that I would consider it to be a colouration.

 

[still-one]

jim

So what you are saying is you like some coloration to your sound?

Steve, you may call it coloration. Others there may call it thin or thick. I call it closer to what I want to hear. Difficult to define but much easier when I hear it.

 

[Steve Williams]

It is only when this character becomes easily noticeable or dominant that I would consider it to be a colouration.

I totally agree. If something stands out so much that it begs comment that to me is coloration.

 

[Al M.]

I don't understand why posters think that cables should be treated different than any other product in your system. Some prefer tubes to solid state and it is unlikely that is due to tubes "doing nothing". Even then many roll their tubes. Again is that because the new tubes are closer to passing some idea of the "input signal"? Who chooses a DAC because if does nothing to the signal?

See DaveC's post #44.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I read posts where individuals prefer cables that do nothing. This is the antithesis of what I seek in a cable or for that matter any audio component I purchase. I have A/B'd every component and piece of gear in my set-up (save for the speakers) and the one that gets me closer to what I am looking for stays. I have no desire to pay for something that does nothing.

I don't understand why posters think that cables should be treated different than any other product in your system. Some prefer tubes to solid state and it is unlikely that is due to tubes "doing nothing". Even then many roll their tubes. Again is that because the new tubes are closer to passing some idea of the "input signal"? Who chooses a DAC because if does nothing to the signal?

Because it does not make any sense at all that mere wires should have as significant a sonic effect on what we hear as different substantive components.

 

[Sablon Audio]

Because it does not make any sense at all that mere wires should have as significant a sonic effect on what we hear as different substantive components.

Ron, an easy way to conceptualise this is to compare with cooking. The more ingredients there are, the more scope there is to blend out strong individual flavours. Traditional French cuisine leans this way, whereas Spanish concentrates on the innate quality of few ingredients.

Whilst pieces of equipment have numerous components in the signal path, they are tuned as an assembly to work together in harmony and the innate characters of individual pieces will offset / moderate each other. A cable has less scope for such tuning - wire / plugs / solder (possibly) and is therefore more dependent on just a couple of parts.