I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!
- Thread starter rockitman
- Start date
Yes. Transformers induce vibration into the chassis. It gets to the tubes/rectifiers and starts vibrating them aswell, which isnt so good.
Peter, Tang may not get the full fat Stacore effect sans pneumatic isolation to his AS, but the rack/shelves will still have uber mass loading, Stacore constrained layer tech, and isolation built into the legs/supports.
Otherwise what would have the point been to order this bespoke unit, Tang could just as easily purchased Dave's preferred option.
Otherwise what would have the point been to order this bespoke unit, Tang could just as easily purchased Dave's preferred option.
Marc. You might trying a little too hard being Stacore's resident fanboi
we get you love it - One day I would love to hear one - but downunder in Sydney is bloody expensive.
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XV, I've had three major epiphanies in my audio optimising life.
One is the cosmic effects of a great room, the other is the "after midnight" sound 24/7 of balanced power, and the other is the transformative effect of Stacore under my tt.
Listen, I know the forums are littered with claims of this or that changing one's audio outlook, Stacore has done this for my enjoyment of vinyl.
One is the cosmic effects of a great room, the other is the "after midnight" sound 24/7 of balanced power, and the other is the transformative effect of Stacore under my tt.
Listen, I know the forums are littered with claims of this or that changing one's audio outlook, Stacore has done this for my enjoyment of vinyl.
Hi Tang,
Yes very much so. If you have any tube power supplies not getting benefits from your racks, try it out. You’ll be happily rewarded.
Christian,
Active isolation is a feedback process with a sound signature - surely different from passive. A lot will depend on the implementation, as the Taiko people have been finding when perfecting it. IMHO, if we are interested in its effects we have to try it in our system and judge it according to our preferences.
I can not see how a spinning turntable fights the active isolation intrinsically, but I am prepared to learn.
Marc, my point is that you are surmising that Tang may be getting the same "Stacore uptick" on his AS that you are getting on your Salvation. I am merely pointing out that the two conditions are very dissimilar. You have the Stacore pneumatic isolation technology under your TT, while Tang is using what looks like a rigid, static mass loaded rack system with some dampening in the structure plus perhaps some passive constrained layer technology. I'm not suggesting that he is getting no benefit from the Stacore rack, but at first glance, his turntable is resting on a support which is much more like David's design than it is anything like what your TT is resting on.
Tang seems to be following David's advice that the AS2000 be placed on a very heavy, rigid, stiff structure, not on an active of passive isolation platform that uses air, springs, or servos. Like you, I am very satisfied with my pneumatic Vibraplane platform under my turntable, but David, Christian, and now Tang are going in a completely different direction. Or am I not understanding the technology in Tang's Stacore rack system?
It's easy to see and the Herzan vibration graph shows it. When a TT spins it creates centrifugal forces in the form of vibration that drain out it's chassis/plinth. The Herzan will in turn try to counteract that those forces/vibrations that it is sensing. It will inject itself into the vibration feedback loop that all TT's have. IMO and experience, it's counterproductive with TT's. YMMV
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I hope your new “nothing” rack isn’t one piece. Otherwise you would need a forklift running into your house.
Are the legs in cylinder or square?
Tang
I have no idea on leg shape. Yes, I believe it comes apart. David may chime in. The only thing I know is that it's somewhere between 500-1000lbs...
Thanks . IMHO a platter spinning at uniform speed will only create centrifugal force if it is not balanced - a high quality turntables such as yours does not suffer from this problem. And as far as I could understand the AS2000 does not have feedback in its motor speed control - the measuring device is purely an indicator.
Are you saying that when the platter turns the Hertzan platform detects periodic motion?
There is a feedback loop between platter, plinth, bearing (if applicable), tonearm and cart. It flows in both directions. The way to get better results with active and I experienced this with my AF1 is to isolate/buffer the TT from the Herzan top plate (HRS shelf in my case). That way vibrations coming from the TT are somewhat isolated from the herzan, resulting in less active isolation opposing forces (interference) being injected in the mix. Floor born vibrations are the only vibrations I want being attenuated with TT's....Not the vibrations/forces created by the TT itself. With the AS2000 sitting directly on the metal plate, any vibration that is created from the motor and or platter is attenuated. The result is a deadened sound lacking life and sparkle.
Christian, are you saying that the motor and platter vibrate and that this vibration has a positive effect on the sound of the overall turntable system? It sounds like a tuning thing and active attenuation "detunes" the system for a dull sound lacking "life". As Louis Kahn said, "A brick wants to be a brick." The AS2000 is similar. It is tuned to sound a certain, er natural, way. Adding anything to this system just gets in the way of the natural resonance frequency of the AS2000 system and messes with the sound. Is that correct?
The platter is floating on a bed of air. How is any vibration from the rotating platter reaching the Herzan to be attenuated by the active servos? Are the vibrations being transmitted through the drive belt into the motor and then somehow migrating through the massive metal enclose down to the Herzan?
I don't doubt that you observe that your turntable sounds better without the active Herzan unit engaged, but I'm curious as to why. I presume the whole concept behind the design of the AS2000 regarding vibrations is to dampen them through mass.
To clarify a few points in the last few posts.
1- There's no feedback or servo loop in AS-2000's controller, it's one of the worst things you can do to a high inertia design.
2- I believe the the feedback loop Chris mentioned is the relation between the free spinning turntable and platform below with it's servos reacting to the motion above. The constant change in the counter force applied based on the what it picks from the above is what interferes with the sound the same way a servo or electronic loop in the speed control.
david
1- There's no feedback or servo loop in AS-2000's controller, it's one of the worst things you can do to a high inertia design.
2- I believe the the feedback loop Chris mentioned is the relation between the free spinning turntable and platform below with it's servos reacting to the motion above. The constant change in the counter force applied based on the what it picks from the above is what interferes with the sound the same way a servo or electronic loop in the speed control.
david
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Solid vs Reactive & Passive Adjustable Springs.
In simple terms think of the relation between the object, the platform and the spring as the Chinese fist & palm salute. You can safely try this home for yourself!
The flat hand is your platform, the force applied from that shoulder is the mass of the object on top of the platform. The fist is the spring below the platform and the pressure applied is by the shoulder is the force from below pushing into the platform.
1- The most ideal state of being is a strong stiff palm against a fist of equal strength with an equal and constant amount of force applied from both sides to remain in that ideal state without flex or change in pressure. This is your solid well built high mass stand, no movement no changes a constant ideal uniform state.
2- Condition two, the adjustable spring. Start in the ideal balanced condition, ie the spring pressure is constant and of equal resistance to the force above, similar to the solid ideal unified condition. Loosen the fist a little and lessen the pressure behind the fist and the palm will squash the fist, this will lead to a muddy sound. Start to progressively clench tighter and apply more pressure against the palm, the first reaction past balance point is stiffening of the palm and with continued pressure you'll push the palm away from center causing an imbalance. The typical sonic reaction in a non suspended design is first a tightening of low frequencies which depending on the tt's bass quality but with constant increased pressure the sound will become thinner or tighter depending on vocabulary used. Typically with adjustable spring design platforms there are 3 or 4 springs applying resistive and/or progressive pressure against the load they're presented but and with a typical uneven load of a turntable you'll necessarily end up with springs of unequal resistance. Roll your knuckles back and forth against the palm of the and see how it affects then exert more pressure and further stiffen palm to emulate a high mass load and feel what happens as you roll and rock back and forth on your knuckles. You'll also noticed that the direction of the applied force to the the palm will change with rolling of knuckles. All this can introduce unknown variables into the sound field.
3- Condition three, the reactive spring. For the most part they're designed to react to changing forces from below and inhibit their effect on what's above and not the other way around. In case of a turntable you have an uneven load creating vibration, movement and even fluctuating mass from above from what I understand not something Herzan was designed to deal with. Combine this with what's happening from below and the reactive spring circuitry could overreact or react in an undefined manner. This is akin to a jackhammering fist with changing variable strength, shaky arm and rolling knuckles, what you feel happening to your palm is what's happening to the turntable on a reactive spring. Typically the reactive platforms seem to have a thin table top, soften your palm and see what happens to everything!
david
In simple terms think of the relation between the object, the platform and the spring as the Chinese fist & palm salute. You can safely try this home for yourself
!The flat hand is your platform, the force applied from that shoulder is the mass of the object on top of the platform. The fist is the spring below the platform and the pressure applied is by the shoulder is the force from below pushing into the platform.
1- The most ideal state of being is a strong stiff palm against a fist of equal strength with an equal and constant amount of force applied from both sides to remain in that ideal state without flex or change in pressure. This is your solid well built high mass stand, no movement no changes a constant ideal uniform state.
2- Condition two, the adjustable spring. Start in the ideal balanced condition, ie the spring pressure is constant and of equal resistance to the force above, similar to the solid ideal unified condition. Loosen the fist a little and lessen the pressure behind the fist and the palm will squash the fist, this will lead to a muddy sound. Start to progressively clench tighter and apply more pressure against the palm, the first reaction past balance point is stiffening of the palm and with continued pressure you'll push the palm away from center causing an imbalance. The typical sonic reaction in a non suspended design is first a tightening of low frequencies which depending on the tt's bass quality but with constant increased pressure the sound will become thinner or tighter depending on vocabulary used. Typically with adjustable spring design platforms there are 3 or 4 springs applying resistive and/or progressive pressure against the load they're presented but and with a typical uneven load of a turntable you'll necessarily end up with springs of unequal resistance. Roll your knuckles back and forth against the palm of the and see how it affects then exert more pressure and further stiffen palm to emulate a high mass load and feel what happens as you roll and rock back and forth on your knuckles. You'll also noticed that the direction of the applied force to the the palm will change with rolling of knuckles. All this can introduce unknown variables into the sound field.
3- Condition three, the reactive spring. For the most part they're designed to react to changing forces from below and inhibit their effect on what's above and not the other way around. In case of a turntable you have an uneven load creating vibration, movement and even fluctuating mass from above from what I understand not something Herzan was designed to deal with. Combine this with what's happening from below and the reactive spring circuitry could overreact or react in an undefined manner. This is akin to a jackhammering fist with changing variable strength, shaky arm and rolling knuckles, what you feel happening to your palm is what's happening to the turntable on a reactive spring. Typically the reactive platforms seem to have a thin table top, soften your palm and see what happens to everything!
david
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Centrifugal force is a fictitious force related to a constant spinning frame of reference it has nothing to do with balance ?
Euler's force also fictitious can be created by alterations in speed [ie accerelation] of a spinning system, thus a fluctuating speed could create this effect, but its not a real force, but a symptom of the inertia of the object spinning....if your referring to sprung platforms is this what your referring to? the upset of the platform as the platter accelerates and deaccelerates?
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