The Audio System and High-End Philosophy of Mike Lavigne

[Rodney Gold]

"grow up"? ... how patronising to someone who has opened his home and system to scrutiny and has been nothing but an utter gentleman in doing so...

 

[Ron Resnick]

I now appreciate there is a sensitivity there which I am happy to be sensitive to. I intended “a shade dryer” to be synonymous with “a shade less liquid.”

Saying the 458 is a shade less liquid than the 450 is perfectly fine with me, and it does not change my intended meaning in any way.

 

[Audiocrack]

"grow up"? ... how patronising to someone who has opened his home and system to scrutiny and has been nothing but an utter gentleman in doing so...

If we are talking about “patronising”, may I refer you to post 145 in this thread?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

If we are talking about “patronising”, may I refer you to post 145 in this thread?

fair enough.

this morning I had Ed Hsu (of SGM and Taiko Tana) arriving at my home before I left for work at 6:30 am to work on my Taiko Tana products for the next few days, I was in a hurry and so did not think that post #145 all the way through. Rudolf you are right that I took shots that I normally would not take and thought I was being humorous, but see it was understandably taken in another way and I apologize.

which does not change my view of that term, but I should have not posted until I could express my opinion better. not to say anyone agrees with me.....and it's not necessary that they do.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, no way could that post of yours be described as in any way offensive, it was pretty pithy and spot on.

I mean, someone has to be teacher to make sure we’re not using the wrong language.

Or maybe Rudolph by saying “grow up” to you Mike, thinks that we’re all children.

I used to know kids in primary school who would always have a strop if you didn’t notice or like their shiny new toy or shoes.

I was pretty obnoxious myself. But I wasn’t the worst.

Some kids never change.

 

[Tango]

they are the dictionary definition of 'liquid' sounding.......to a fault. so something less liquid sounding is most likely still liquid to a degree.....not......dry. dry=absence of water=missing something. verses less of something.

Sawasdee Mike,

Audiophile English is very difficult to really understand for me. We should have a reference dictionary of audiophile vocabs. If I am really interested in the person commenting I have to study how he uses words and what he really means by that. You are one of those persons Mike. The word “liquid” is used by you a lot. I see quite a few people start to pick up this word and use it more frequently. Only til you described above, I was actually guessing what you meant by “liquid.” I wrongly thought “liquid” in audio term meant something like “fluid” having to do with “flow,” not liquid as “not dry” as you stated. Thanks for correcting me my understanding of liquid. Not very often I see one describe his meaning of vocab used. The more explanation the less ambiguity especially when we deal with dangerous words that attract linebackers to defend.


Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Audiocrack]

fair enough.

this morning I had Ed Hsu (of SGM and Taiko Tana) arriving at my home before I left for work at 6:30 am to work on my Taiko Tana products for the next few days, I was in a hurry and so did not think that post #145 all the way through. Rudolf you are right that I took shots that I normally would not take and thought I was being humorous, but see it was understandably taken in another way and I apologize.

which does not change my view of that term, but I should have not posted until I could express my opinion better. not to say anyone agrees with me.....and it's not necessary that they do.

I appreciate your words/gesture, Mike. I gladly withdraw (hope that is good English) my words "grow up" in one of my previous mails so that we can leave all this behind us.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, the closest I’ve been to a system that could be described as having (close to) zero character, invisibility, lack of identifiable cues, was my trip to UK-Paul of Z Axis Audio, running a tricked out Sony DD tt, Concert Fidelity SS amps, modded ML Spires ‘stats.

I was really not sure I was going to like it, I mean big Watts going into panels doesn’t on paper do anything for me, having had real mixed results w Quads ESLs, ML Prodigies, Neoliths, Apogees etc.

And SS? That’s so “pre 2012” LOL.

You can’t imagine my surprise when I melted into a sound that was totally beguiling and detailed, soulful and resolute, involving and even.

I kept “looking” for evidence of a signature or colouration, but could absolutely not find one.

Maybe a slight lack of density and shove in lower mids, but that was only a marginal criticism, and it’s purely in comparison to my Zu/SETs mids that are very full.

Indeed it may be, I’m sure of it actually, that my system is indeed coloured here, and Paul’s is more accurate.

Fascinatingly, I couldn’t get enough of this sound, especially it’s not one I’d usually subscribe to. It’s always fascinating to have non expectation bias flipped on it’s head.

And I’ve worked hard since my visit to him to address what I believe has been highlighted as colouration in my sound, and have gone a long way to solve this.

So Mike I think I have a little idea of what you’re achieving albeit Paul’s system not having the ultimate headroom of yr sound.

Indeed, if I had £75-100k today, and I wanted to transplant a whole new sound into my space, I wouldn’t hesitate to go Paul’s route.

Mike, you’d tip your hat to him, like you he’s sweated the details with his balanced power transformer, overspecced supports (and cables), that absolutely take his components and blend to the maxx.

 

[bonzo75]

That slight lack of density in the lower mids changes (for the better) when you swap the recti in the Allnic

 

[spiritofmusic]

If that’s right Ked, then this is a good contender for best balanced system/sound I’ve ever (not) heard.

The conundrum of course is the room, put Paul’s or indeed Mike’s system lock stock and barrel elsewhere, will you get the same positive results?

I couldn’t accommodate Mike’s 7’ high EAs, but Paul’s Spires, no problem.

I love all the characterful exhuberant systems that have appealed to me over the years.
But Paul’s system really demonstrated an extra level of calm even handed insight.

The vagaries of fate, my spend that got a room that would likely excel with Paul’s system means I can’t afford Paul’s system.

Oh well, at least I’ve moved a massive amount in his direction, whereas his system in my old room would have disappointed.

 

[bonzo75]

No his system in your old room would have sounded fine because of the space behind the panels. Your current room is too big for it, possibly. But we are digressing and going off topic

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure, just comments really that I’m now fully cognisant of the room being critical, and have experience of neutral/invisible.

I have a little idea of Mike’s inbuilt advantages over the rest of us.

 

[microstrip]

Then why did you ask?

Because from your posts I was wrongly imagining you were analyzing serious measurements from Bonnie ...

 

[shakti]

Thank you, shakti!

Do you feel you have lost any SET delicacy or transparency switching from the ATM-211s to the CAT Statements?

Ron,
I lost nothing in terms if delicacy or transparency,
the CAT JL 3 Statement is even better (Triode as well, no push pull)) but the price for 10 times more power was a 6 times higher price ticket.

It seems, that it is very difficult to create a high power tube Design.
There are Tube Amp monos out there (like Octave), they do 200w/channel with 2 times of 4x KT 150 tube in push pull.
My CAT JL 3 Statement is doing around 200w/channel with 2 times of 16x KT 150 in Triode Mode.

Ken Stevens nearly doubled the price from standard JL3 to JL3 Statement, saying the main reason was a different and expensive transformer, which allows a better resolution and speaker control.
I can confirm the better speaker control of the new amps, apart from continuing the liquid sound quality of the Air Tight 211 monos, the extended control makes the 3D effect of music in the room more lifelike.

But the bigger change in performance was the enhanced room treatment, which is unfortunately power consuming.

Room and PowerAmp were originally improved and changed to host a Gryphon Poseidon System,
this project is delayed (and hopefully not cancelled, depending ob the current owner of the Poseidon).

My first thought was, that the CAT Statement will be far too big for the 97 DB Zingali, but after listening, I decided , there cannot be too much power in an improved room, it is just adding headroom for dynamic peaks.

So I am going to try the high power CATs in the near future on 100db hORNS Universum. This will be interesting !


Just another observation.

If a "perfect room" , like Mike's , is in place, the reflections are much more reduced or controlled, so the need of direct speaker driven SPL is much higher.

All gear will have to absorb this higher direct SPL from the speakers. So my gear reacts more sensible on active or passive bases or racks than before I did the enhanced room treatment.

So I can fully understand, that Mike is so keen to use the Taiko Tana modded Herzan 140 under the critical components, as they are close to the speakers.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Shakti, if it helps, my 70W Class A 211 NATs (plus 350W Class D subs) help my 101dB eff Zus fully energise my 5.5m width x 15m depth x 1.3-3m height space.

And at moderate volume levels, not overly cranking it out.

Previn/Planets suite lp was unbelievably lush and energetic, fully saturating my 80 sq m/175 cub m space.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Only in direct comparison to the darTZeel 458s could I discern that the VAC 450s are not quite as ultimately dynamic or as microscope resolving as the 458s. Only in direct comparison could I hear a very slight smoothing of detail compared to the VACs. The VACs do not exhibit quite the seemingly unlimited dynamic power and speed of the 458s. (...)

Ron,

Now that the "dryness" was settled, can we go go back to this much enigmatic sentence? Can you elaborate on this "smoothing of detail"?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Gosh, the forensic analysers of each and every word written by Ron are out.

Let me guess, Ron uses the phrases “dry” and “smoothing of detail”, Mike would absolutely beg to differ.

 

[shakti]

Shakti, if it helps, my 70W Class A 211 NATs (plus 350W Class D subs) help my 101dB eff Zus fully energise my 5.5m x 15m x 3m (down to 1.3m) space.

And at moderate volume levels, not overly cranking it out.

Previn/Planets suite lp was unbelievably lush and energetic, fully saturating my 80 sq m/175 cub m space.

that helps

I had last year NAT SE1, SE2 and SE3 in my home, very nice amps, specially SE3. Because of NAT SE3 (4x GE VC4/211), I trusted, that it is possible to get SET performance out of more than one tube. Without that experience , I never would have invested into the CAT JL3 Statement,
which is a another league in power and performance , than my previous NAT amps (they are now with friends, so I still have access for comparisons).
(my room is 60sqm, 3,2 m high with closed doors, another 60sqm are added with open doors, which is mostly the fact)

 

[spiritofmusic]

Juergen, we were in some private chat recently re all this.

In a parallel universe (ie more money, more understanding GF, less financially challenging property, and critically, more air conditioning LOL), I would love to consider the NAT Magmas New at 170W.

The 120W Transmitters are maybe not for me being SETetrode rather than Triode.

The good thing is 70W triode magic is weaving its spell here.

And a decade of stressing over Zu subs integration is finally fully behind me in the last week.

 

[dminches]

Sawasdee Mike,

Audiophile English is very difficult to really understand for me.

Tang, even for those of us for whom English is a first language some of the audiophile terms are cryptic at best. You are not alone!