Why so expensive to overcome limitations of Electrostats? Why so few speakers beat ol' Quad 57?

[PeterA]

I told Paul about the shutdown, he's never seen it before. Nonetheless, the overall sonic picture didn't change from any of the prior four auditions with 4000SV, though this time I honed in on the actual problems. I also wanted to compare the 4000SV vs the Vivaldi, so next time I'll play analog. But the 4000SV never sounded euphonic in here, so the sources are not the real source of the problem. As I said, the problems are from the amps downstream.

Did you look at the settings of the MIT cables? To get this back on topic, do you think those network box settings affect dynamics and bass response? What has been your experience? I always thought of them more as affecting tone, frequency balance and character, and some spatial effects/manipulation. Are you preferring the lower or higher settings these days?

 

[Al M.]

Did you look at the settings of the MIT cables? To get this back on topic, do you think those network box settings affect dynamics and bass response? What has been your experience? I always thought of them more as affecting tone, frequency balance and character, and some spatial effects/manipulation. Are you preferring the lower or higher settings these days?

Good point, Peter. I also start to suspect that those clunky MIT ACC 169 'articulation consoles' badly affect the sound, even when they are 'turned off' (settings to neutral). Perhaps this is a main culprit for the euphonic sound that Ack reported? In fact, if I were to be able to just right now hunt for the problem in that room, this would be the first item that I would exchange for something more normal.

When you and I had that great audition of the Rossini player with the Spectral DMC-30SV/DMA-300RS amp combo driving the Magico Q1, there was no such console in the room, and it sounded great. It was with MIT cables, but 'normal' ones.

I am usually an MIT cable fan, and I swear by my MIT digital AES/EBU cable, but those clunky articulation consoles (the MIT ACC 268 looks even worse) have always struck me as something utterly strange. Not to speak of the outrageous price.

 

[ack]

The speaker cable switches were all off. Don’t know about their sound. I prefer them off as well nowadays.

 

[ack]

Dynamics: The 4000SV is not as dynamic as the Vivaldi, and the system as a whole did not really match what I have at home, and what I recently heard at Al's with that Rihm drum DC (see his thread). In fact, there wasn't as much visceral impact as I heard in his, and I will refrain from comments on my own system until he's had a chance to hear the CD over here. Interestingly enough, the 500s shut down a number of times on me, while going full bore - disappointing

Well, well, well... So here's how dynamic these electrostatic hybrids can get: I just played this same CD in my system as loud as possible, and my 400s also shut down. This CD is f*ing system torture, and I really thank Al for turning us on to it. We'll see how the 500s will fair in here, but both sets of amplifiers are simply running out of juice, and there is nothing wrong with them - I just need 1000W or something to do this CD justice. The speakers themselves did not break a sweat, and the sound is really thunderous, and frankly, scary. Hmm, maybe a need two pairs of 500s, to bi-amp

 

[Kingsrule]

Are the Spectral amps running out of juice or oscillating themselves into oblivion?

 

[Kingsrule]

As far as Goodwin's big room, its like an acoustic black hole. No amount of power is enough and no speaker is too large. And nothing ever sounded good in it.....

 

[Al M.]

This CD is f*ing system torture, and I really thank Al for turning us on to it.

You're very welcome, Ack. I didn't anticipate those side effects...

 

[Al M.]

As far as Goodwin's big room, its like an acoustic black hole. No amount of power is enough and no speaker is too large. And nothing ever sounded good in it.....

The Magico S7 with S sub, driven by Spectral DMA-400s, sounded good. I do agree, it's a difficult room.

 

[ack]

Are the Spectral amps running out of juice or oscillating themselves into oblivion?

3 DACs, two speakers, requisite cables... I really doubt it's oscillation when things are so damn loud. It's can't be DC either - I actually have a CD track that triggers that on low volumes, and apparently a very specific section during that track. And I think I have to agree about that room.

You just have to buy Al's CD and witness woofer cones delivered to your listening position in perfectly fried and deformed state, to understand.

 

[PeterA]

3 DACs, two speakers, requisite cables... I really doubt it's oscillation when things are so damn loud. It's can't be DC either - I actually have a CD track that triggers that on low volumes, and apparently a very specific section during that track. And I think I have to agree about that room.

You just have to buy Al's CD and witness woofer cones delivered to your listening position in perfectly fried and deformed state, to understand.

Al played this CD for me on his system at very loud volume and there were no issues. It sounded awesome. His new amp and speakers were up to the task.

 

[asiufy]

Curious now, what's the CD you guys talking about?

 

[MtnHam]

This one?


Proteus 7 ?– For Your Ears Only
https://www.discogs.com/release/6040595-For-Your-Ears-Only/images

If so, which tracks?

 

[Al M.]

It's this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Rihm-Tutuguri-Wolfgang/dp/B00008NRIR

Disc 1 is for orchestra, and disc 2 is the one that Ack talks about. For six percussionists (incl. large and heavy bass drums) and choir (the latter only appears intermittently). Duration 37 minutes. Outrageous stuff.

 

[Al M.]

Al played this CD for me on his system at very loud volume and there were no issues. It sounded awesome. His new amp and speakers were up to the task.

Yes, but my monitors are 92 dB efficient and don't put any deep bass load on the amp. The deep bass is handled by my dual 1800 W (class D) JL Audio subwoofers.

When I just had the subs I was afraid that at some point the circuit breaker might trip, but this worry proved unfounded (Paul at Goodwin's already told me there would be no problem). The subs are driven at all times at just a low percentage of their max. power.

 

[asiufy]

Thanks, Al!

It's available on Tidal, so I'll be able to listen to it right away

 

[Al M.]

Thanks, Al!

It's available on Tidal, so I'll be able to listen to it right away

Great! Hope you enjoyed it.

I spent my evening with Steve Roach's Stormwarning, a live recording (1985/1987) with him playing synthesizers using lots of fast sequencing lines, all building together a large Wall of Sound.

Also, Mozart's string quartet KV 387 (one of the 'Haydn' quartets), played by the Quatuor Mosaiques on period instruments at lower tuning (A = 415 rather than A = 440). Delicate and magnificent. Uncharacteristic for his usually rapid way of writing, he worked on the Haydn quartets for a period of two years.

Next up, Bach's violin sonata #1 with Lucy van Dael (on Naxos), on baroque violin with also the lower tuning and warm sound. Wow, what sophisticated music!

Finally Tigran Hamasyan Trio, 'Mockroot'. He is an Armenian jazz pianist, using lots of influences of the music of his home country, and the trio is completed with electric bass and drums.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigran_Hamasyan

 

[Kingsrule]

3 DACs, two speakers, requisite cables... I really doubt it's oscillation when things are so damn loud. It's can't be DC either - I actually have a CD track that triggers that on low volumes, and apparently a very specific section during that track. And I think I have to agree about that room.

You just have to buy Al's CD and witness woofer cones delivered to your listening position in perfectly fried and deformed state, to understand.

I have the cd..the Spectral's are oscillating.....my cones don't deform......

 

[asiufy]

Great! Hope you enjoyed it.

I spent my evening with Steve Roach's Stormwarning, a live recording (1985/1987) with him playing synthesizers using lots of fast sequencing lines, all building together a large Wall of Sound.

Also, Mozart's string quartet KV 387 (one of the 'Haydn' quartets), played by the Quatuor Mosaiques on period instruments at lower tuning (A = 415 rather than A = 440). Delicate and magnificent. Uncharacteristic for his usually rapid way of writing, he worked on the Haydn quartets for a period of two years.

Next up, Bach's violin sonata #1 with Lucy van Dael (on Naxos), on baroque violin with also the lower tuning and warm sound. Wow, what sophisticated music!

Finally Tigran Hamasyan Trio, 'Mockroot'. He is an Armenian jazz pianist, using lots of influences of the music of his home country, and the trio is completed with electric bass and drums.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigran_Hamasyan

Yeah I was just going through that 4th movement on the Wilson/D'Agostino setup... Spooky stuff, really fast, loud, and amazing presence! All the percussion neatly laid out on the soundstage. Now that everybody's gone, I can crank the sh*t out of it

Steve Roach is awesome, that's possibly my fave from him! If you dig that sequencer stuff, look into the Berlin School scene of electronic music (started by Tangerine Dream, back in the 70s). There are a lot of artists that followed that genre, and Roach's "Stormwarning" was his most Berlin-esque album, I believe.

Will look into the Mozart/Bach discs, thanks

Tigran has been on my radar for a while, really tasteful stuff, love the mix of armenian melodies with that typical ECM vibe.

 

[Al M.]

Yeah I was just going through that 4th movement on the Wilson/D'Agostino setup... Spooky stuff, really fast, loud, and amazing presence! All the percussion neatly laid out on the soundstage. Now that everybody's gone, I can crank the sh*t out of it

Steve Roach is awesome, that's possibly my fave from him! If you dig that sequencer stuff, look into the Berlin School scene of electronic music (started by Tangerine Dream, back in the 70s). There are a lot of artists that followed that genre, and Roach's "Stormwarning" was his most Berlin-esque album, I believe.

Will look into the Mozart/Bach discs, thanks

Tigran has been on my radar for a while, really tasteful stuff, love the mix of armenian melodies with that typical ECM vibe.

Great, crank the sh*t out of it then Glad you like Tigran and Steve Roach too; I'm familar with the Berlin School. Another Roach favorite of mine is The Magnificent Void, totally different, slow. I should listen to it again tomorrow, haven't done so in a while. I thought it's a masterpiece, I look forward to see if that impression holds up, I assume it will.

 

[Al M.]

Another total favorite of mine is 'Halcyon Days' by Steve Roach/Stephen Kent/Kenneth Newby. Synth, percussion, didgeridoo. Very atmospheric, intricate shifts of rhythm and sound.